Discriminations

John Rosenberg writes:

>>>"But wait. Haven’t we loudly, insistently, and incessantly been told that without pigmentary “diversity” there can be no real education? How can “segregated” Morehouse be so successful?"

You're looking past the forest to see the trees. Let's actually LOOK at the Joshua Packwood story John, since you're trying to use him to attack college diversity efforts.

>>>"And so Packwood turned down Columbia University, postponing his dream of living in New York City. He ignored some in his family who warned that he might not have the same opportunities he would have as a Columbia graduate, and headed South."

http://www.newsweek.com/id/136530/page/4

You see, John...he was ACCEPTED to Ivy League Schools and CHOSE to go to predominantly Black Morehouse College, which has a total enrollment of less than 3,000 undergrads. I would assume that if OTHER white students, or Asian-Americans (I'm feeling you, E) CHOSE to apply to Morehouse, they wouldn't be rejected either.

Joshua Packwood writes:

>>>"That said I could come here and, ironically, be accepted for who I am," Packwood said. "I thought I made the right decision then, and I know I made the right decision now."

http://www.newsweek.com/id/136530/page/3

The Packwood story gets BETTER, John...and I have this sneaky suspicion that many of the posters who lurk here won't warm up to it as much as I have.

>>>"It was not as if this was the first time Packwood experienced life in the minority. He was among the few white students in his class at Grandview Senior High School in Kansas City, Mo. He has mixed-race siblings and his mother was married to a black man. Packwood's experiences growing up have helped him navigate black culture while remaining comfortable with his own complexion."

http://www.newsweek.com/id/136530/page/3

Well that's a fine slap in the face to the champions of defacto segregation who frequently chime in on this blog.

Here's further proof that Joshua Packwood isn't the tool for attacking college diversity plans that some here may WISH him to be...

>>>"Classes proved to be a challenge socially and academically when the discussions shifted to issues of race. Once, Packwood was asked to sit on a panel about interracial relationships. Though he had dated black girls since high school, he spent the first hour of the panel getting warmed up, feeling out the crowd and trying to couch his thoughts.

"It was kind of heated, and there were very strong views on both sides," he said. "But eventually I realized they put me on the panel not to just pander to the crowd, but to voice my opinion."

Packwood said such exchanges taught him a lesson.

"Sometimes I kind of wanted to hold back," he acknowledged. "A lot of the professors and students have been like, 'No, don't hold back. We want your perspective here. If we're not going to get it from you, it's going to be very difficult for us to get it somewhere else.'"

Both students and faculty, he said, seemed to appreciate his honesty.

"The few times I have held back and tried to pick my words wisely or even go against what I truly believe, that's when I've caught the most flak," he said."

What???!! You mean that Packwood,a white student in a predominantly Black College atmosphere was encouraged to be TRUTHFUL and HONEST in his dialogues, ESPECIALLY in matters concerning RACE?

!!!!

Well, that's certainly not what many posters here at Discriminations think would happen if they were to have an honest dialogue on Race. But there it is in reality!

Surely, some here might say, Packwood must have come under constant attack and scrutiny in this predominantly black atmosphere, and must have been severely threatened socially...as is the great fear of the defacto segregationist theme that often piggy-backs on the anti-affirmative action movement.

Well...looks like something else happened:

>>>"With each semester, Packwood's grades remained high, his confidence grew and his resume became more impressive. Summers were spent on Wall Street at Morgan Stanley and Goldman Sachs, he studied abroad in London and Costa Rica, and his studies have taken him to China and Switzerland.

He also drew attention with his looks — some Atlanta University Center coeds took to calling him "Tom Cruise." His photo album on Facebook shows a smiling Packwood posing with dozens of young, black women who fill his page with notes.

As Morehouse embraced him, Packwood became an unlikely ambassador for the school.

"Josh Packwood is Morehouse," the college's president, Robert Franklin, said in his inauguration speech in February. "He happens to be Euro-American and brings much appreciated diversity to our campus."

Wendell Marsh, a junior English and French major who is black, said talking to Packwood as a high school senior helped make up his mind to come to Morehouse.

"Right now we live in a time where people say the black institution is obsolete, that you can get a better education at a majority institution," Marsh said. "To see a white guy who had declined Harvard for Morehouse, I figured it was good enough for me."

http://www.newsweek.com/id/136530/page/7

>>>"Packwood raised "the bar for everyone," said Stanton Fears, a senior economics major.

"The best man got it, that's how I look at it," Fears said. "It's about equality here, too. If he wants to come here and make a name for himself, he should be allowed the same types of things we're allowed."

http://www.newsweek.com/id/136530/page/7

John Rosenberg writes:

>>>"I suppose there’s nothing ironic about Martin Luther King’s vision being, even if somewhat awkardly, alive and well at his alma mater while the remainder of selective higher education institutions in the country trip over themselves and each other in their racial classifying and their frantic attempts to produce racial balancing.

It’s not ironic; it’s worse."

The problem is, John, there wasn't a ban on Joshua Packwood attending Morehouse College, and you have written testimony that diversity IMPROVED the educational experience of all parties.

Why, pray tell, John, do you continue to ATTACK college diversity plans while citing success stories like Morehouse Man Joshua Packwood?

--Cobra

Cobra,

Joshua had a black stepfather and has black siblings. He grew up in black culture even though the article misrepresented his high school since greatschools.com indicates that it is 38% white.

Also, Joshua seems to be playing up the poor black child act too much. He was a clothes horse on campus who had money to travel abroad and intern in New York City.

Also, according to princetonreview.com, the 75% for SAT scores at Morehouse is 1170 (20 points lower than third tier Georgia State in the same city). If Joshua was really accepted into STanford, Columbia, and Chicago like he claimed, his SAT is probably above 1500. He was way ahead of most of his classmates.

I also wonder when he was applying to Columbia and STanford is be checked off on being black since his stepfather was black.

My guess is that Joshua has fully adopted black culture (dress, music, and even speech). That is not what other universities claim is the goal of diversity. That would be like blacks going to Stanford learning to speak without an accent.

He cobra,

nobody here has claimed that Joshua has been harassed or could be `used against the universities diversity plan`. In fact, he is proof of an argument I have been trying to make in previous discussions.

You Quoted and stated:

>>>"It was not as if this was the first time Packwood experienced life in the minority. He was among the few white students in his class at Grandview Senior High School in Kansas City, Mo. He has mixed-race siblings and his mother was married to a black man. Packwood's experiences growing up have helped him navigate black culture while remaining comfortable with his own complexion."

http://www.newsweek.com/id/136530/page/3

Well that's a fine slap in the face to the champions of defacto segregation who frequently chime in on this blog.

1. No, its not a slap in the face of anybody except those who claim a "critical mass" of any race is needed to assure a "welcoming climate" and who promote diversity quotas here. You see, he was basically alone and yet he managed to cope.

2. the absence of a same race peer group allows individuals to adapt. If there had been a "critical mass" of whites, he would have propably joined them and would not have had as much contact to the black majority at his university. Exactly thes same thin happens with changed roles at other institutions: When black kids are alone in the vrowd, they seek social contact to white kids and usually get along fine. They adapt and take on "white behaviour" leading to better academic achievements. When the number of black kids gets pushed to a "critical mass" by lowering the standards then the first black kids will cut the social contacts to the white kids and join their (lower standard) peer group. They will cease "acting white" and adapt to the lower academic standard of the peer group.

It is fortunate for Joshua that Morehouse does not have the same standard eroding aproach to increasing pigmentary diversity as other universities have concernicg black kids.

Peer group pressure requires a peer group and stereotype threat is usually strongest towards peers.

If they say that his experiences have helped him to "navigate black culture while remaining comfortable with his own complexion", then why do black kids alledgedly need a "critical mass" of other black kids to feel comfortable with themselves?

Morehouse Man Joshua Packwood and his success have disprooven the claims of all the so called diversity proponents, that there is such a thing as a critical mass. What should matter for diversity is diversity of opinions and social viewpoints and these should be as far fetched as possible. The usual `we need more black faces in the crowd` aproach hoever does not create diversity and real diversity is not achieved when the crowd of faces represents the population of anywhere. Morehouse Man Joshua Packwood is proof of it.

- Andrew

Superdestroyer writes:

>>>"Also, Joshua seems to be playing up the poor black child act too much. He was a clothes horse on campus who had money to travel abroad and intern in New York City."

LOL...

It took all of twenty-four minutes for the attacks on Joshua Packwood to begin.

Hey, Readers...you know, it's not like I didn't WARN you this was going to happen.

Superdestroyer writes:

>>>"My guess is that Joshua has fully adopted black culture (dress, music, and even speech). That is not what other universities claim is the goal of diversity. That would be like blacks going to Stanford learning to speak without an accent."

"black accent?"

....

Supe, I'm spilling my soda here...you're too much.

Readers, can you see what we have here? Here we have a young man who should be CELEBRATED for his accomplishments, and some people can't deal with it.
It's as though somehow, Joshua Packwood can't possibly have been successful academically and socially at a predominantly black school.

Oh no...there has to be something "wrong" with Packwood. He must need to go under some re-education, debriefing, or "Gratzification", if you will, to expunge all that cross-racial good will his experience has generated.

It's a shame, but it's America.

--Cobra

Cobra,

When I first read the Morehouse story it had several things in the story that seemed to be played up so that the story would have a very definite point of view. Joshua claimed to have come from a troubled home where his mother and stepfather had such severe domestic issues that he lived with a friend without financial support from his parents. Yet, in college he had money for international travel, internship in NYC, clothes, and socializing. Part of his story does not agree with other parts. My guess is that he as exaggerated and omitted things to improve the narrative.

Did you really read the media stories about Joshua. The Morehouse recruiter thought he was talking to a black male until Joshua self-identified as white. Are you telling me that there are no verbal clues in America to who is Africa-American and who is not.

I did not doubt that Joshua would have academic success. Someone who is probably two standard deviations above the average intelligence of the student body at a third tier school would succeed and be at the top of his class. It also helped Joshua to have adopted black culture as his own.

However, If you dropped a nerdy white guy with a 1500 SAT score who played Worlds of Warcraft and did not date, did not listen to hip hop, and was not interested in sports, I doubt if he would be the valdictorian.

The Joshua story reaffirms what many of claimed about affirmative action. The claim that diversity in education is needed to be a successful leader is a lie. The claim that blacks even want diversity is a lie. Compare the Joshua story to the story out of Duke where the black students stick to themselves and have no white friends. I guess the whites at Duke have not adopted black culture like Joshua has.

Superdestroyer writes:

>>>"Are you telling me that there are no verbal clues in America to who is Africa-American and who is not."

I'm telling you that many times, voices can be indistinguishable.

I've surprised many a person when they finally meet me face to face after phone conversations.

Superdestroyer writes:

>>>"I did not doubt that Joshua would have academic success. Someone who is probably two standard deviations above the average intelligence of the student body at a third tier school would succeed and be at the top of his class. It also helped Joshua to have adopted black culture as his own."

Oh, now I get it. It's not enough to attack Packwood. You have to attack Morehouse as well.

Andrew writes:

>>>"Peer group pressure requires a peer group and stereotype threat is usually strongest towards peers.

If they say that his experiences have helped him to "navigate black culture while remaining comfortable with his own complexion", then why do black kids alledgedly need a "critical mass" of other black kids to feel comfortable with themselves?"

Perhaps you didn't read the narrative closely enough. Morehouse EMBRACED Joshua Packwood in both social and academic circles. The students and faculty IMPLORED him to be open and honest with them, ESPECIALLY in discussions regarding race.

Now, you can't sit here and tell me that this kind of experience happens to every African-American student at a predominantly White college or university.

--Cobra

Cobra,

When Morehouse has easier Admissions standards than Georgia State Univeristy, then, yes, it is a third tier university. Of course, that puts it ahead of virtually ever other HBCU such as Alcorn, Grambling, North Carolina Central that are fourt tier universities

I wonder who Joshua's experiences compare to the all white bowling team at Maryland-Eastern Shore.

Superdestroyer writes:

>>>"When Morehouse has easier Admissions standards than Georgia State Univeristy, then, yes, it is a third tier university. Of course, that puts it ahead of virtually ever other HBCU such as Alcorn, Grambling, North Carolina Central that are fourt tier universities."

Then basically, why did John Rosenberg bring this subject up, or any discussion of HBCU's in general, if they are "third and fourth tier" as you describe?

Why, pray tell, would Goldman Sachs or Morgan Stanley be even remotely interested in Joshua Packwood after attending a "third tier" school, when there are Ivy League applicants pounding on their doors?

In your rush to denegrate and dismiss Joshua Packwood, and by association, almost every HBCU, you reveal the VERY REASON why America needs college diversity programs in the first place.

--Cobra

I-Banking will hire whites at the top of their classes from HBCU for the same reason that Big Law hires whites who attended Howard University Law School. They can put in their literature that they hire from HBCU while hiring individuals who will actually fit in with the elite, white, progressive cultures.

Cobra, do you actually think that the elite whites on Wall Street actually want to work with blacks? Of course, those Ivy leaguers went to schools with diversity programs but withouth the messiness of having many black students. And even then, 50% of the blacks at the Ivy leagues are immigrants or the children of immigrants.

Superdestroyer writes:

>>>"Cobra, do you actually think that the elite whites on Wall Street actually want to work with blacks?"

Did you catch that one, Readers?

Please ELABORATE on this statement, Supe.

Make MY argument FOR Affirmative Action even MORE persuavive.

--Cobra

Sounds like "Trading Places" to me. I'd like to see some elaboration, too.

Cobra, you said: "Perhaps you didn't read the narrative closely enough. Morehouse EMBRACED Joshua Packwood in both social and academic circles. The students and faculty IMPLORED him to be open and honest with them, ESPECIALLY in discussions regarding race.

Now, you can't sit here and tell me that this kind of experience happens to every African-American student at a predominantly White college or university."

You're right that it probably doesn't happen to every A-A student at predominantly white schools. But it probably happens to some. I'll bet it happens to those who are valued for the DIVERSITY they bring more than they would even like. And it probably doesn't happen to every white kid at a HCBU.

cobra,

do you really think that the Clintons sent Chelsea Clinton to Sidwell Friends just because they had better security. Or was it because that there were few blacks/Hispanics and that those few tokens were from elite parents?

Do you think that the daughter and granddaugther of Ruth Bader Ginsberg attended Trinity School to avoid blacks at a school in NYC that is 90% white or just because of the great academics?

If you answer those questions truthfully, then you know the answer for Wall Street.

Remember, the judge who ordered forced busing in Boston back in the 70's sent his own children to private school.

If the elite whites want affirmative action, then they should do it with their own children first and leave the blue collar children in Louisville, Seattle, etc alone.

If the elite in this country are unwilling to support diversity and affirmative aciton with their own families, then it should be ended.

Superdestroyer writes:

>>>"If the elite whites want affirmative action, then they should do it with their own children first and leave the blue collar children in Louisville, Seattle, etc alone."

"Elite whites?" This is fascinating. You could infer from your post, that "elite whites" maintain some type of "power structure", that would dictate societal control, especially in regards to race and gender.

Hmmmm....

Now where have I heard that before?

--Cobra

Cobra,

You should recognize who the elite whites are, they are the ones supporting Senator Obama for the most part.

Please answer my question: Why do so many white liberals send their children to private schools with few to no blacks or Hispanics. Even Senator Obama sends his children to schools that are only 10% black and 3% Hispanic.