Several posts below (here) I discussed Obama’s comments on affirmative action in the recent Philadelphia debate, finding them a continuation of the obfuscatory waffling I’d criticized in earlier posts cited there. Two close observers I highly respect, however, Mickey Kaus and Roger Clegg, were far more optimistic (I discussed their views in UPDATES to my recent post), as was Chet Zarko, a frequent commenter here whose views I also respect (in this comment to the above post).
So, I’ve continued to think about what he said, and continued to wonder what he meant, and I have the following additional thoughts.
First, let me quote exactly what Obama said in its entirety, since what he actually said may present a clue as to what his position is. (Or, in the alternative, he may have no position, or a position, or preference, completely at variance with what he said, but let’s worry about that later.)
MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: Senator Obama, last May we talked about affirmative action, ad you said at the time that affluent African Americans like your daughters should probably be treated as pretty advantaged when they apply to college, and that poor white children — kids — should get special consideration, affirmative action.
So, as president, how specifically would you recommend changing affirmative action policies so that affluent African Americans are not given advantages, and poor, less affluent whites are?
SENATOR OBAMA: Well, I think that the basic principle that should guide discussions not just on affirmative action but how we are admitting young people to college generally is, how do we make sure that we’re providing ladders of opportunity for people? How do we make sure that every child in America has a decent shot in pursuing their dreams?
And race is still a factor in our society. And I think that for universities and other institutions to say, you know, we’re going to take into account the hardships that somebody has experienced because they’re black or Latino or because they’re women –
MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: Even if they’re wealthy?
SENATOR OBAMA: I think that’s something that they can take into account, but it can only be in the context of looking at the whole situation of the young person. So if they look at my child and they say, you know, Malia and Sasha, they’ve had a pretty good deal, then that shouldn’t be factored in. On the other hand, if there’s a young white person who has been working hard, struggling, and has overcome great odds, that’s something that should be taken into account.
So I still believe in affirmative action as a means of overcoming both historic and potentially current discrimination, but I think that it can’t be a quota system and it can’t be something that is simply applied without looking at the whole person, whether that person is black or white or Hispanic, male or female.
What we want to do is make sure that people who have been locked out of opportunity are going to be able to walk through those doors of opportunity in the future.
The optimists read the above and see Obama moving away from an automatic rewarding of race to a revised kind of holistic affirmative action that looks at the whole person (of whatever color) and rewards overcoming hardship.
I’m still not persuaded. He notes that “race is still a factor in our society” and concludes from that that universities and other institutions should “take into account the hardships that somebody has experienced because they’re black or Latino or because they’re women….” Thus the crucial question here is whether or not admissions officers, employers, contract officers, etc., are entitled to view race as a proxy for having endured hardship.
Obama tries to say no by saying “it” (presumably the preferential treatment afforded by affirmative action) “can’t be something that is simply applied without looking at the whole person, whether that person is black or white or Hispanic, male or female.” But is this position really credible, or even possible?
Let’s give Obama and this position the benefit of the doubt by agreeing that it would deprive most rich, privileged, “pretty advantaged” blacks like his daughters from the race preferences they would otherwise surely receive. (Or would it? Don’t many rich blacks also claim that they too suffer slights, indignities, and even some hardships simply by virtue of being black? Would Obama deny those claims?)
But is it reasonable to expect admissions officers etc. to determine which blacks, Latinos, women, etc., have suffered “hardship” because they are black, Latino, women? How would they do so? Wouldn’t a revised, holistic affirmative action of the sort Obama seems to propose inevitably invite the gatekeepers to, de facto, regard race and ethnicity as proxies for hardship? That’s certainly what the “holistic” system at UCLA seems to be doing (see cites in previous post). Isn’t that in effect what the University of Michigan undergraduate admissions did, albeit in the name of promoting “diversity,” when it automatically awarded 20 points to every black applicant? Does Obama think that was wrong? (Hillary certainly didn’t. She signed a brief with other Democratic senators supporting those automatic points.) Would he have thought it wrong if it had awarded only 10 points?
I believe, in short, that Obama’s plan (insofar as what he said in Philadelphia represents a plan) would encourage preferentialists to continue awarding preference points for race, and that the only “change” this would represent would be that race would now be regarded as a proxy for “enduring hardship” instead of “providing ‘diversity.’”
In fact, Obama’s move away from “diversity”-justified preferences would run into a serious legal obstacle, at least until he manages to appoint some justices and judges who, like him, do not believe in colorblind equal treatment. As Roger Clegg has noted recently on an email list I read, and in fact as all lawyers involved in affirmative action know (except, perhaps, former Harvard Law Review editor Obama), the courts have pretty much restricted the use of race preferences to the purpose of promoting “diversity.” Thus, when Obama says affirmative action is still needed “as a means of overcoming both historic and potentially current discrimination,” he is advocating something that is not now currently permitted. And isn’t advocating special treatment as a presumed remedy for “potentially current discrimination” that has not actually occurred, that only “potentially” may be occuring, isn’t that going a bit far for liberals who usually demand the occurrence of crime before imposing punishment?
Finally, one other large obstacle I see is not so much with Obama’s “plan” as with Obama himself. Insofar as what he proposes would move any distance at all away from more or less automatic race preferences, it would to that degree reduce the number of minorities preferentially admitted to selective universities. Faced with that possibility, the civil rights establishment can be confidently predicted to object forcefully. What is the basis for believing that Obama will have the fortitude to stand up to the pressure he will receive from his most loyal supporters? On what other major issue has he gone against a major power center in his party, or even proposed doing so in the future?
In other words, I’m afraid I see Obama’s version of affirmative action as just another rhetorical smokescreen of proposing that we mend it, not end it, with no real mending being offered. The Clintons should recognize this as a substance-less political feint worthy of themselves.
UPDATE
I don’t usually find myself agreeing with the Washington Post’s (and MSNBC’s) Eugene Robinson, but in a rare outburst of good judgment he agrees with me about Obama’s Philly debate affirmative action comments:
… Obama threatened to make news, but didn’t quite, when the subject turned to affirmative action. He walked to the brink of a clear declaration that all affirmative action programs taking race into account should also have to consider income — but didn’t take the leap.
Note that it never occurred to Robinson that Obama never broached or even considered the possibility of dropping preferential treatment based on race.
I’m certain that Bill Clinton appreciates the deftness and skill with which O’Bama is out-substance-less-ing his wife, on this issue and others.
That’s precisely why they can’t beat him or his strategy – he has out-Clinton’ed them.
Is it really worth the effort to try to guess what such a politician “really means” or is “really saying”? If he wanted to be clear, he would have been clear. Instead, he’s chosen to say something that could mean anything. I think we should just point that out and move on.
(Of course, journalists and those who ask questions at debates should point out that some of what he advocates has been deemed illegal.)
What bothers me the most about Obama’s comments is that he mis-speaks on why preferences are in place. Preferences are not in place to make up for past (or current, as Obama added) discrimination. The reason the University of Michigan used the “diveristy” defense is because they knew full well that in the court of law using preferences to make up for past discrimination wasn’t going to fly.
As a presidential candiate (and an attorney, for that matter) I think it’s outrageous that Obama couches the use of preferences “as a means of overcoming both historic and potentially current discrimination.”
Far be it from me not to bring up the McCAIN answer to this question.
>>>”The third presidential hopeful of the day, Republican Sen. John McCain cautiously backed affirmative action as a means of leveling the playing field in the United States. “We do not have sufficient opportunities,” said McCain, who took pains not to praise or condemn Initiative 200.”
http://www.stateline.org/live/ViewPage.action?siteNodeId=136&languageId=1&contentId=13736
>>>”McCain supports the following principles regarding affirmative action and discrimination:
The federal government should continue affirmative action programs only if such programs do not include quotas
The Federal Government should consider affirmative action programs if ordered by a court to rectify specific programs.
Source: Project Vote Smart, 1998, http://www.vote-smart.org Jul 2, 1998
http://www.ontheissues.org/Senate/John_McCain_Civil_Rights.htm
John McCain video on his support of Affirmative Action:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xd6bV251uXU
Listen and compare both sets of comments between Obama and McCain.
Tell me–
Which candidate has a view on this topic that is CLOSER to YOUR position?
–Cobra
I wish the video sound quality was better. It sounded as if McCain was going into some detail and I’d like to have heard it.
Cobra, these things from McCain are from 1998 and 1999. Possibly he still sees things exactly this way. My question for you is: If AA can remediate wrongs, level the playing field, fix the problem, then is it possible that what a well-intentioned person said 9 years ago is not what that well-intentioned person would say today after years of AA? If that’s not the case, if a person who supported AA 9 years ago must continue to support it now and forever, then maybe AA isn’t working?
Laura writes:
>>>”Cobra, these things from McCain are from 1998 and 1999. Possibly he still sees things exactly this way. My question for you is: If AA can remediate wrongs, level the playing field, fix the problem, then is it possible that what a well-intentioned person said 9 years ago is not what that well-intentioned person would say today after years of AA? If that’s not the case, if a person who supported AA 9 years ago must continue to support it now and forever, then maybe AA isn’t working?”
Well, my automatic PERSONAL answer to that question is that I really don’t believe that America has changed that much in regards to race and gender since 1999. That’s ONLY nine years ago, Laura.
Now, as far as McCain goes–this is a candidate who has a HISTORY of FLIP-FLOPPING on racially charged topics, ie. the Confederate Flag over Statehouses, the MLK Holiday, and not to forget the unapologetic racial epithet leveled at Asians.
It would not surprise me at all if his flip-flopping continued on Affirmative Action, but of course…
The media doesn’t ASK him about these things in 2008.
McCain appeared on ABC’s This Week with George Stephanopolous, and although ol’ George can ask Obama about Affirmative Action during the debate in a loaded, “gotcha” type question, he couldn’t seem to bring himself to ask McCain about it so we could all hear what his CURRENT stance is on the issue.
–Cobra
Cobra, not to defend McCain, but you quote him on this:
“The Federal Government should consider affirmative action programs if ordered by a court to rectify specific programs.”
Easy. That standard is pretty basic – you prove specific discrimination, with a specific victim and specific offender, and remediation becomes a legitimate thing of the courts. While I’m sure some on “our” side object to even that, I don’t believe the majority on our side do. That fits with individualism – where there is an identifiable discrimination, punishment and remediation are appropriate. That’s the 1964 Civil Rights Act, essentially.
I have more difficulty with McCain on the other point you quote:
“The federal government should continue affirmative action programs only if such programs do not include quotas.”
But, as was pointed out, it was 1999, and that was before “quotas” as a word had become distorted, largely by the U-Michigan cases which were still in District Court at the time. U-M claimed it never used quotas, but even the 2003 Supreme Court ruling found that it did, at least in the undergrad program. It was the Grutter ruling which allowed a U-M word game loophole (mechanistic v. non-mechanistic) to take center stage, but the effect of their program was indistinguishable from quotas. It’s hard to hold 1999 McCain accountable for knowing how the 2003 Court would rule, and his statement could easily mean that he opposed preferences but supported “affirmative action” in the sense of 1) outreach 2) enforcement of the CRA of 1964 (a la the first quote) 3) other AA like socio-economic programs (which, I repeat, is far more than just “preference” – its fixing broken schools, which would, by laws of statistics, help more blacks than whites.
I’d like to hear McCain asked this, and I’m sure he will be, despite your ridiculous suggestion that he’s getting some kind of media free ride (from a former Clinton advisor, nonetheless). In fact, if I get the opportunity, I’ll ask him myself and put the audio or video on YouTube for you.
Cobra: “Which candidate has a view on this topic that is CLOSER to YOUR position?”
We could ask you the same question. Are you voting for McCain?
Chetly Zarko writes:
>>>”I’d like to hear McCain asked this, and I’m sure he will be, despite your ridiculous suggestion that he’s getting some kind of media free ride (from a former Clinton advisor, nonetheless). In fact, if I get the opportunity, I’ll ask him myself and put the audio or video on YouTube for you.”
But don’t you get it? There were PLENTY of Republican debates. Why didn’t we hear the question THEN, when there was a field of candidates, and everybody could express their viewpoints?
Is it a case where there are “Republican” questions and “Democrat” questions?
In fact, the closest thing we’ve had in THIS election cycle for Republicans on this issue was at Tavis Smiley’s All-American Presidential Forum, where only 5 of the 10 GOP candidates invited bothered to even show up. (5 if you count Alan Keyes, of course.)
http://www.pbs.org/kcet/tavissmiley/special/forums/video/rch13.html
Dom writes:
>>>”Are you voting for McCain?”
No.
–Cobra