Discriminations

If I had to guess about Obama's motivations for belonging to Rev. Wright's congregation, I'd bet on pandering.

I'm inclined not to believe that Obama really shares many of Rev. Wright's loony beliefs. Obama probably joined the church to get his black credentials stamped.

A Democrat can't win a presidential election without bagging at least 90% of the black vote. Obama knows this. Obama is half white, and that has caused doubt about his authentic "blackness."

Wright is certainly a execrable loony, but he's a loony that Obama probably needs. This is not a rare phenomenon in politics.

Although I loathe race hustlers like Rev. Wright, I'm going to surprise you by saying that Obama's association with that nutjob probably isn't going to be a deciding or even very important factor in my vote for president.

I'm not that excited about McCain either.

John, you are of course correct in questioning Obama’s judgment. There is no way that someone who at a minimum tolerates if not endorses the views of Rev. Wright should be elected president. As to Obama’s denial that he had ever heard Rev. Wright's sermons all I can say is poppycock. How in the world could Obama credibly claim that he didn’t know what Reverend Wright was saying when he sells the tapes at the church. The tapes are the smoking gun! How could anyone believe that Obama never heard one of those tapes? It’s more likely that Obama has (well not any longer) the complete collection of the Revevend’s greatest hits at his home. Also, Reverend Wright is Obama’s mentor. Could anyone be naïve enough to believe that the Reverend only makes those racist and anti-American statements during his sermons and the rest of the time he never mentioned his views to Obama?

The statements that Rev. Wright made that are the cause of this controversy were not statements I personally heard him preach while I sat in the pews of Trinity or heard him utter in private conversation.

It is clear that when it comes to Rev. Wright, Obama is Sergeant Shultz. “I hear nothink, I see nothink, I know nothink!”

John writes:

>>>"What kind of judgment did Obama show in his 20 year association with Rev. Wright?"

It depends on whether you're willing to look at the entire juxtaposition of religion and politics in this country, and not be "selective" in focusing on Barack Obama.

--Cobra

Cobra, you always try to context everything out of existence. John is focusing on Obama because he's running for President. There are a million churches out there without ministers who want God to damn America.

Please note that, for the first time since the invention of the internet, Cobra and I are in complete agreement, Enjoy it while you can.

Pandering to the extremes of the party is the normal course of business on both the left and the right. There is no qualitative difference between Obama's pandering to the extreme left and Bush's pandering to the extreme right. This must be done to win primary elections because the extremes of both parties are the people most motivated to work and vote in primaries.

There might be a lot of reasons to vote against Obama, but I don't think Rev. Wright is one of them. Obama is just doing what he has to do to make the extreme left wing of the Democratic Party happy.

If he is nominated, the difficult task he faces is to keep those votes from the extreme left while he also tries to convince moderates to vote for him.

Trying to hang Rev. Wright on Sen. Obama doesn't even work for me. Yes, Rev. Wright is a complete loony. No, Obama doesn't really have to answer for him.

Recall Michelle Obama's recent comments that she has never really been proud of this country until her husband started gaining white support for president.

Sounds suspiciously like Rev. Wright's infamous admonishment calling for God to d*mn America rather than God bless America.

The simply truth is that the Obamas are far-left radicals who have been allowed to fly under the political radar by sycophants in the media. Rev. Wright is considered to be a "personal spiritual counselor" by Sen. Obama.

Use common sense. If one has a close personal connection to another for almost twenty years, wouldn't you know everything about that person including prejudices and biases (especially outright hatred).

Obama is on the ropes, even as he distances himself from the clearly bigoted Rev. Wright.

ST - please give an example of Bush pandering to the extreme right.

Remember, "pandering" doesn't mean doing something that happens to please somebody. It means doing something whose sole purpose is to appeal to them. If you want to say that, for instance, by opposing abortion Bush is pandering to the far-right, you need to demonstrate that Bush is not pro-life by conviction. If you want to say that by going to X church he's pandering, you have to demonstrate that without trying to please the far-right he wouldn't be going to church.

And I don't think that by joining this church Obama was pandering to anybody - Michelle was a member there first, right, so he started going with her? Pandering would mean that he chose this church, which he otherwise wouldn't have, only because of a political benefit to him. If he had chosen it because he thought it would benefit him politically, surely he would have gone through the pros-and-cons, decided it was worth it, and not be backpedaling now.

Shorting Thomas, Obama doesn’t have to answer for Rev. Wright’s views, only his own. The problem is, by being a member of Wright’s church for 20 years and given the fact that Obama is an intelligent and politically savvy individual, there is only one conclusion that can be drawn, namely that Obama is not troubled by the views of Rev. Wright.

Without going into a long story, I had joined a newly formed synagogue some years ago. I am not one who goes to synagogue every week; however, it was not difficult for me to see in the few times that I attended that the Rabbi had decidedly left wing views. After a particular egregious comment I spoke to him about it and I told him I was offended by what he had said. After the next time a similar incident happened I told him I could not be a member of a congregation that had a Rabbi with his views and left the congregation.

You see Shouting Thomas it is not so difficult to disassociate yourself from someone whose views you profoundly differ with. Since there was no way that Obama was not familiar with the views of Rev. Wright, the fact that after 20 years Obama did not indicate in any way that he disagreed with Rev. Wright speaks volumes. If Obama, as he now claims, found Rev. Wright’s views to be so distasteful, he would have left the church many years ago.

Since I am a Catholic... perhaps "cafeteria Catholic" would be a better term... I'm accustomed to dealing with the reality that I don't agree with the Church I attend on many issues.

I don't particularly agree with the Church on its stance on sexuality or homosexuality. I attend church in a number of different parishes depending on where I am, and I disagree quite vehemently with the views of a couple of the priests I encounter. One in particular is quite entranced with liberation theology, which I regard as lame pseudo-Marxism.

I have several gay friends who are devout Catholics, who attend services regularly although their sexual practices are condemned by the Church.

Agreement with social and political policy is not what I'm looking for in my spiritual life. The Church is something far bigger and transcendent than the narrow issues of social and political policy. My primary reason for going to church is for the social interaction. At times, I also go to a black Baptist Church because I love the enthusiasm of the congregation and the music is transformative and beautiful. The black pastor presents a number of leftist political views that I do not agree with, but I thoroughly enjoy my interaction with him and the congregation.

So, maybe I'm just a natural born hypocrite, but I don't care.

As for President Bush, he's campaigned twice as a Reagan Republican, promising fiscal responsibility and a hands-off approach to government. He's been spending money like a drunken sailor. So, yes he pandered to the right wing, when he had no intention of delivering on his promises.

Stephen writes:

>>>"Please note that, for the first time since the invention of the internet, Cobra and I are in complete agreement, Enjoy it while you can."

Let's extend the joyous celebration.

Stephen, I want to COMMEND you for two OUTSTANDING posts on this thread. You are absolutely CORRECT on this issue, and I COMPLETELY agree with your stance.

--Cobra
3/16/2008

Laura writes:

>>>"Remember, "pandering" doesn't mean doing something that happens to please somebody. It means doing something whose sole purpose is to appeal to them. If you want to say that, for instance, by opposing abortion Bush is pandering to the far-right, you need to demonstrate that Bush is not pro-life by conviction. If you want to say that by going to X church he's pandering, you have to demonstrate that without trying to please the far-right he wouldn't be going to church."

Remember back in 2000, Laura?

>>>"Senator John McCain, in a provocative and politically risky speech, sharply criticized leaders of the religious right on Monday as "agents of intolerance" allied to his rival, Governor George W. Bush, and denounced what he said were the tactics of "division and slander."

Specifically, Mr. McCain singled out the evangelists Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell as "corrupting influences on religion and politics" and said parts of the religious right were divisive and even un-American.

By launching the unsparing attack from Virginia — a stronghold of the religious right — the Arizona senator effectively ceded any chance of finding serious support from within a major Republican constituency...

...Mr. Bush, forced onto the defensive by a controversy that seems to have caught him off-stride, found himself compelled Sunday to make public the text of an apologetic letter he had sent to Cardinal John O'Connor, the Roman Catholic archbishop of New York.

In the letter, Mr. Bush expressed regret that he had not "been more clear in disassociating myself from anti-Catholic sentiments and racial prejudice."

The Texas governor sent the letter Friday after being confronted by continuing criticism from the McCain camp that he appeared at Bob Jones University on Feb. 2 without speaking out against prejudice. The university, a conservative Christian institution in Greenville, South Carolina, bans interracial dating, and its officials have derided the Catholic faith."

http://www.iht.com/articles/2000/02/29/bush.2.t_9.php

Remember the "Faith-Based" Initiatives?

>>>"As he promised during the campaign, President Bush launched his "faith-based" initiative on Monday by establishing a White House office to assist and encourage faith-based organizations is seeking federal funds to combat problems like drug addiction and homelessness.

In a first executive order, Bush created the White House Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives. University of Pennsylvania political science professor John Dilulio was named as the head of the new office.

A second related order relieved regulations within the departments of Justice, Housing and Urban Development, Health and Human Services, Labor and Education which, according to the President, made it difficult for private organizations from seeking federal funds."

http://usgovinfo.about.com/library/weekly/aa012901a.htm

And how about this--President Bush, who recently broke the vacation time record for any sitting President -- www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/03/11/politics/uwire/main3927378.shtml -- and a man who is LOATHE to return from a vacation for any reason, whether it be devastating hurricanes, or Presidential Daily Briefings about imminent terrorist attacks (Remember Condi's PDB in August 2001?) demonstrated THIS behavior...

>>>" federal district court judge in Tampa said this afternoon he would not rule immediately on a request by the parents of Terri Schiavo to replace the severely brain damaged woman's feeding tube.

After listening to about 45 minutes of arguments from each side, the judge, James D. Whittemore, would not say when he would issue a decision on a case that has ignited emotional national debate over the right-to-die issue. The situation promped an extraordinary effort over the weekend by Congress and President Bush to keep Ms. Schiavo alive; the president cut short a Texas vacation to fly back to Washington, and just after 1 a.m. this morning signed legislation that was passed minutes earlier...

...Mr. Bush, traveling to Tucson today to talk up his Social Security plans, told his audience that he signed the Schiavo legislation at 1:08 a.m.

"Democrats and Republicans in Congress came together last night to give Terri Schiavo's parents another opportunity to save their daughter's life," Mr. Bush told the audience. "This is a complex case with serious issues, but in extraordinary circumstances like this, it is wise to always err on the side of life."

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/21/politics/21cnd-debate.html

--Cobra

I love President Bush for trying to save Terri Schiavo. That was absolutely the right thing to do.

As to the pandering, you STILL have to show that he didn't do what he did from motives of his own as opposed to trying to please someone else. Are you trying to say that his support of faith-based initiatives is pandering? Please demonstrate to me that he didn't do it because he thought it was a good thing for the country.

Bush is no self-promoting horn-tooter, that's for sure. I won't copy-and-paste all of this into John's comment section, but please see this (and incidentally, the "Bush doesn't care about black people" is one of those unfair smears I referred to).

Richard writes:

>>>"You see Shouting Thomas it is not so difficult to disassociate yourself from someone whose views you profoundly differ with."

What would you say about Mitt Romney, 61, who rose to the level of Bishop in the Mormons, which had an official policy of non-white inferiority for the first 31 years of life and chose NOT to "disassociate" himself from the church?

--Cobra

What would you say about Mitt Romney, 61, who rose to the level of Bishop in the Mormons, which had an official policy of non-white inferiority for the first 31 years of life and chose NOT to "disassociate" himself from the church?

I’ll make a deal with you Cobra. I won’t vote for Romney and you won’t vote for Obama.

I don’t think you really want to make this argument Cobra. If your only point is that someone who is willing to vote for Romney and not Obama is being a hypocrite, fine. However, Romney is no longer running for President and Obama still is. If you are intimating that Romney’s membership in the Mormon Church somehow cancels out Obama’s membership in Wright’s congregation, then I have a real problem with your argument. Without trying to be too simplistic, didn’t you ever learn that two wrongs don’t make a Wright (pun intended)? If you really feel that membership in a church whose views you find to be indefensible should disqualify the person from being President then I would think that you would agree that one should not vote for Obama.