Terrific MCRI Debate At Wayne State

Last night Wayne State University hosted a debate between a supporter and an opponent of the Michigan Civil Rights Initiative (MCRI) that, from this college newspaper account, seems to have been unusually civil and informative … and perhaps a bit surprising, or at least unsettling to some assumptions, since the opponent of MCRI (and thus supporter of racial preferences, University of Michigan law professor Theodore St. Antoine, is white, and the supporter of MCRI (and thus opponent of racial preferences), Michigan State political science professor William Allen, is black.

Even more unusual than the nature of the debate, the article actually quotes several students who decided, after listening to both sides, to support MCRI. (Either that very seldom happens or, more likely, most article don’t choose to mention it.) In fact,

many students from the crowd, which consisted of mixed races, young and old, agreed with many of Allen’s beliefs.

“I’m against affirmative action and I agree with everything Dr. Allen spoke about. I’ll vote yes on Proposal 2,” said Deshon Hill-Henderson, a black male transfer student majoring in criminal justice.

“In the long run, it’s not going to help minorities, it’s not going to help black people. That black people can only make it in a competitive world with preferential treatment — I think that’s outlandish and just ridiculous.”

Hill-Henderson obviously agreed with one of Professor Allen’s main points:

Throughout, Allen held fast to the belief that the premise of affirmative action is that minorities are inferior to whites; he said that individuals have the right to be treated fairly.

“The argument began with assumptions of inferiority,” Allen said. “If you didn’t have the argument of race, you wouldn’t have a basis.”

And what did Prof. St. Antoine say in defense of maintaining racial preferences?

St. Antoine agreed with many of Allen’s principles but said that barriers still needed to be cut down.

“Affirmative action hasn’t accomplished everything yet, but there’s been progress,” St. Antoine said. “Women and minorities are catching up fast. It’s myopia to be color blind.”

Both agreed that Michigan’s economy is bad.

Allen said he believes the problems Michigan’s economy faces “are the partners of affirmative action preferences.”

St. Antoine said he believes the economy is a great concern but unemployment depends on education. “The more educated people are, the better the economy,” he said.

There are those mysterious, unnamed “barriers” again. But, as I asked here just a couple of days ago,

Precisely what “barriers” are “broken” [or, for this post, “cut down”] by racial preferences? Laws that require equal treatment, such as the 1964 Civil Rights Act, knock down the barrier of racial discrimination. What is the equivalent barrier that racial preferences knock down? (This is a test. Be specific.)

The only thing “broken” or knocked down or removed or “cut down” by racial preferences is the obligation to treat people without regard to their race or ethnicity.

How utterly sad that the current “civil rights movement,” liberals, Democrats, and virtually all Michigan elites in the corporations, media, and universities now see colorblind equal treatment as a “barrier.”

Say What? (14)

  1. Cobra October 25, 2006 at 10:42 pm | | Reply

    Professor William Allen writes:

    >>>”Throughout, Allen held fast to the belief that the premise of affirmative action is that minorities are inferior to whites; he said that individuals have the right to be treated fairly.

    “The argument began with assumptions of inferiority,” Allen said. “If you didn’t have the argument of race, you wouldn’t have a basis.””

    I agree with Professor Allen in these aspects:

    American Society for most of its history, considered minorities inferior to whites. In fact, there are posters to this blog who right now would claim that African-Americans are less intelligent, which by extrapolation, would make them inferior to whites.

    Second, I agree that if this type of thinking on race didn’t exist, we probably wouldn’t need Affirmative Action.

    –Cobra

  2. David October 26, 2006 at 10:59 am | | Reply

    It would be interesting to compare students’ attitudes towards this ballot measure and AA generally based on where they attend college- competitive admissions (UMich) and non-competitive (I assume Wayne State is in this category). Now that I think of it, perhaps the salient difference between the two faculty members is not so much their race but the type of admissions practiced and endorsed on their respective campuses.

  3. A. B. Caneday October 26, 2006 at 5:04 pm | | Reply

    Thanks for this report. It is actually encouraging.

    I commend Professor Allen for his courage to speak truthfully and forthrightly for MCRI, defying and exposing the prejudices of those who champion “affirmative action,” er, I mean, “racial discrimination.”

  4. Michelle Dulak Thomson October 26, 2006 at 6:26 pm | | Reply

    Cobra,

    [T]here are posters to this blog who right now would claim that African-Americans are less intelligent, which by extrapolation, would make them inferior to whites.

    Can you name names, Cobra, and provide supporting evidence? I don’t remember anyone here “claiming” any such thing. You say that there are at least two posters who “would” say so, and I for one am curious who they are.

  5. Chetly Zarko October 26, 2006 at 8:14 pm | | Reply

    Unfortunately for those of you have not had the privelege of hearing Dr. Allen in person, I can’t fully relay how eloquent and effective he is. This article doesn’t surprise me – and it doesn’t surprise me that it came from a college student paper, which on the MCRI issue have been beating the feathers out of many of their professional colleagues.

  6. Cobra October 27, 2006 at 4:16 pm | | Reply

    Michelle writes:

    >>>”Can you name names, Cobra, and provide supporting evidence? I don’t remember anyone here “claiming” any such thing. You say that there are at least two posters who “would” say so, and I for one am curious who they are.”

    All you have to do is ask, my friend.

    >>>”Sad truth is. Blacks score low in all aspects of life. No matter what part of the world they are from. And always have. It’s not skin color. It’s brain size.

    BLACKS HAVE DESTROYED OUR PUBLIC SCHOOLS!

    I think you have done enough damage.”

    Posted by: Joanna Clarkesus | November 13, 2004 11:24 AM

    http://www.discriminations.us/2004/06/are_blacks_too_dumb_to_take_iq.html#comment-11840

    “Of COURSE there are differences in intelligence amongst racial groups!

    50,000 years of evolutionary isolation will do that to a species.

    All breeds of dogs are the same species. Is someone here about argue that there aren’t cognitive distinctions between them???!”

    Posted by: Paul C. | March 3, 2005 10:33 PM

    http://www.discriminations.us/2004/06/are_blacks_too_dumb_to_take_iq.html#comment-11843

    “There is also a strong correlation between IQ tests (for those who say it doesn’t measure anything) and the ability to be brilliant in abstract fields like Math and Physics. It must measure something.

    But blacks have among the highest self-esteem scores. So, apparently, everyone wants to just keep cheering them on like disabled people at the Special Olympics, enabling them feel better so they won’t quit school and commit crimes.

    It is not hard to figure why they give up very early on. It’s bad enough if you’re in a white classroom 1 standard deviation (15 points) behind on average. But then when we start throwing Asians in there with mean IQs of 107, the only thing blacks can do is completely and utterly give up.”

    Posted by: KB | March 7, 2005 7:00 PM

    http://www.discriminations.us/2004/06/are_blacks_too_dumb_to_take_iq.html#comment-11844

    “East-Asians have high, not of 107 but between 103 and 105. Jews have the highest. Despite Asians having a slightly higher average than whites, the majority of brilliant people are white men. Teir IQ’s stray the farthest from average. Asians and white females tend to saty clost to the average.

    As far as blacks go, look at every country run by blacks and tell me IQ’s does’nt mean anything.

    Posted by: John | July 23, 2005 2:18 PM

    http://www.discriminations.us/2004/06/are_blacks_too_dumb_to_take_iq.html#comment-11845

    “IF ALL YOU KNOW ABOUT A DOCTOR IS HIS RACE, the logical choice is to not choose the black doctor, if you want a doctor who was successful in medical school.”

    Posted by: Will | April 20, 2005 4:36 AM

    http://www.discriminations.us/2005/04/favored_vs_disfavored_minoriti.html#comment-5657

    That’s just a SAMPLE. I didn’t even get into the running argument with a poster named “Sharon” over Intelligence test scores and black inferiority. And if the very NAME of the first blog thread I referenced doesn’t give you pause…

    –Cobra

  7. Will October 28, 2006 at 6:53 pm | | Reply

    Cobra, thanks for the links to those posts. The fact is that most of those posts ARE FACTUALLY true – on measures of education and intelligence (IQ, SATs, GPAs, graduation rates, grad school admissions tests (LSAT, GMAT, etc)…asians ON AVERAGE do a little better than whites, whites do a lot better than Hispanics, and Hispanics do a little better than blacks.

    These are averages, nobody says that ALL black people are dumb. Just that on AVERAGE, in statistical measures (even factored for socioeconomic status), the average for blacks in the USA is WAY below the national average.

    It’s so funny how poor asian immigrants kids in the Bay Area (on average)simply study a lot, get good grades, graduate from college, and get good jobs (engineering, accounting, MIS, doctor, dentist, etc)….while black kids who were born in the USA don’t take academics seriously (because that would be “acting white”), and then when they can’t keep up academically, it’s the “white man’s fault”. Wait until asians and Hispanics are the majority in the USA. These people will not (unlike white people) have sympathy when you constantly play the race card.

  8. Cobra October 28, 2006 at 10:40 pm | | Reply

    Will writes:

    >>>”Cobra, thanks for the links to those posts. The fact is that most of those posts ARE FACTUALLY true – on measures of education and intelligence (IQ, SATs, GPAs, graduation rates, grad school admissions tests (LSAT, GMAT, etc)…asians ON AVERAGE do a little better than whites, whites do a lot better than Hispanics, and Hispanics do a little better than blacks.”

    Are you kidding me, Will?

    What posts were you reading? Are you AGREEING with statements like:

    “Blacks score low in all aspects of life. No matter what part of the world they are from. And always have. It’s not skin color. It’s brain size.”

    “But blacks have among the highest self-esteem scores. So, apparently, everyone wants to just keep cheering them on like disabled people at the Special Olympics, enabling them feel better so they won’t quit school and commit crimes.”

    “Despite Asians having a slightly higher average than whites, the majority of brilliant people are white men.”

    If you subscribe to these beliefs, like the above posters, then you understand why I, as a CONSCIOUS African-American believe that Affirmative Action is still neccessary in America.

    Will writes:

    >>>”Wait until asians and Hispanics are the majority in the USA. These people will not (unlike white people) have sympathy when you constantly play the race card.”

    You’re calling American history in regards to the treatment of African-Americans by Whites “sympathetic?” LOL!

    Will writes:

    >>>”It’s so funny how poor asian immigrants kids in the Bay Area (on average)simply study a lot, get good grades, graduate from college, and get good jobs (engineering, accounting, MIS, doctor, dentist, etc…”

    Here we go with the “model minority” myth again. Tell me something…what is the rationale behind large numbers of Chinese-Americans working in manual labor resturant or dry cleaning jobs, Vietnamese Americans working shrimp boats on the Gulf Coast, Indian-and Pakistani-Americans working in convenience stores or motels? Are they “on average” MENSA members? What were THEIR SAT scores?

    Why don’t you test your theory out? The next time you order Dim Sum takeout or a Slurpee, ask the worker an algebra question, and see how that works out for you.

    I don’t have a problem acknowleging that the off-spring of many VOLUNTARY immigrants have a different cultural outlook on academics. That’s not being expressed here by these posters. They’re cheerleading black inferiority, and if you want to shake those particular pom-poms, don’t fault me for calling you on it.

    –Cobra

  9. Laura(southernxyl) October 29, 2006 at 10:41 pm | | Reply

    “American Society for most of its history, considered minorities inferior to whites.”

    Cobra, you are right. Spot-on. Slam-dunk.

    At what point do we quit letting the past hold us back? And that’s not the editorial “we” there. I’m talking about all of us. You are going to hold Will up as an example that these attitudes are not past. My response will be, AA will not help you against the Wills of the world. Let go of AA and let the chips fall where they may. Otherwise this crap will be perpetuated FOREVER. Do you want your grandchildren to think they have to have preferences?

  10. Will October 30, 2006 at 12:08 am | | Reply

    Cobra, you love those strawman arguments, don’t you?

    I simply said that:

    ” on measures of education and intelligence (IQ, SATs, GPAs, graduation rates, grad school admissions tests (LSAT, GMAT, etc)…asians ON AVERAGE do a little better than whites, whites do a lot better than Hispanics, and Hispanics do a little better than blacks.”

    these are factually true statements, backed by a ton of statistical evidence. You don’t seem to be intelligent enough to understand the concept of “average”…whatever the math ability is of specific asian groups in certain professions…is IRRELEVANT to the statistical differences ON AVERAGE for different racial groups.

    And I’m NOT saying that I agree with ALL of the statements of the people you criticized. I’ll let my own statistically factual statements stand on their own.

    And as for white people NOT being sympathetic to black people? Well, white people have given black people racial preferences in college admissions and employment (i.e., affirmative action) for over 40 years). To see what Hispanics think of black people, look at the black-Hispanic race riots and political infighting in Los Angeles and other places. Hispanics will not give black people affirmative action when they become the majority in various states.

  11. Will October 30, 2006 at 12:19 am | | Reply

    Laura,

    People like Cobra are the REASON why white people think that ON AVERAGE black people are less capable of being successful academically. If black people didn’t ASK society to lower academic standards in college admissions for black people, and if black people got into college by actually MEETING the same standards as everyone else, people would not think that black people ON AVERAGE are less capable of academic success.

    White people do not think that non-whites are INHERENTLY inferior academically. There’s a reason why no white people think that Asian-Americans are inferior academically. It’s because they are (ON AVERAGE)NOT inferior, and do not ask America to lower standards for them. If black people had the same aptitiude at academics (and spent the same amount of time on homework and studying) as the average American, they’d be as academically qualified as the average American, and all the stereotypes about dumb black people would GO AWAY INSTANTLY. But then professional race-baiters like Cobra couldn’t play the race card. That’s why these guys don’t focus on the real academic problems (low average black GPAs, SATs, graduation rates, etc). It’s much more fun to play the victim.

  12. Will October 30, 2006 at 12:31 am | | Reply

    Another comment to Laura:

    I hope you are not implying that I “consider minorities inferior to whites.”

    First of all, I’m sure that fewer than 1% of the population is dumb enough to think that ALL minorities are “inferior” to ALL white people in ALL ways.

    Second, most white people think that the average asian student is SUPERIOR acadmically to the average white person.

    Third, most white people have nearly always thought that black people are SUPERIOR (on average)to white people in terms of athletic ability.

    Certain racial groups are statistically better than other groups (due to differences in interest and/or ability) many demographic ways (crime rates, academic qualifications, sports, math, various career choices, teen pregnancy rates, etc). Those are the facts, and saying that the AVERAGE of different groups are statistically different is NOT saying that ALL the people of any one group are ALL better then ALL the people of another group at anything. That’s simply a strawman argument.

    When people ignore statistical evidence to avoid being called names by the PC Nazis, the politcal debate suffers as logic and facts are thrown out and replaced with people (like Cobra) who just try to use invalid “strawman” and “ad hominem” arguments to shut people up.

  13. Laura(southernxyl) October 30, 2006 at 1:07 pm | | Reply

    “If black people didn’t ASK society to lower academic standards in college admissions for black people, and if black people got into college by actually MEETING the same standards as everyone else, people would not think that black people ON AVERAGE are less capable of academic success.”

    My point exactly.

  14. Cobra October 31, 2006 at 8:49 am | | Reply

    You know something, Will? Using statistical averages is a funny thing. You can use these averages to illustrate a variety of points. In fact, using average I.Q. scores and SAT results can be used to make all sorts of controversial arguments.

    Even mine.

    You see, when you DIG DOWN DEEP into I.Q. scores, INSIDE of the “only test three groups” mantra the Anti-Affirmative Action types like to use to promote black inferiority, you find out some “interesting facts.”

    >>>”There are too many examples of discriminated minorities even within ethnic groups that score worse on IQ tests to believe the myth that the differences are genetic…”

    …Perhaps the most dramatic example is the Northern Irish. Even though they come from the same ethnic group, Catholics (the discriminated minority) score 15 points lower on IQ tests than Protestants.”

    http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-inferiorIQ.htm

    How could this be? Both groups are WHITE. They live in the same place. They have the same genetic background! What gives? That’s a greater gap than the one that allegedly exists between white Americans and African-Americans! Let’s dig further, shall we?

    >>>”In the U.S., both Korean and Japanese students score above average in IQ tests; many scholars agree that, genetically, they are about as close as two ethnic groups can get. But the Korean minority living in Japan scores much lower on IQ tests than the Japanese. Why? The Japanese are extremely racist towards Koreans; they view them as stupid and violent, and employ them only in the dirtiest and lowest-paying jobs. Tensions are so great between the two groups that violence often erupts in the form of riots.”

    http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-inferiorIQ.htm

    But these are model minorities, right Will? What’s going on here? I.Q. Stratification within groups based upon power stratification? And how would that factor in based upon the history of AFRICAN-AMERICANS HERE? HMMM?

    I need to see more examples:

    >>>”In the U.S., Polish Jews arriving before 1910 were also perceived as stupid (for no other reason than they were accustomed to a different culture and spoke another language). So many “Pollock” jokes arose that Americans still tell them to this day, even if no one remembers why. The Polish Jews suffered heavy job discrimination and suspicion of criminality; not surprisingly, their children suffered low grades and IQ test scores. Today, of course, many Americans hold the opposite prejudice; Jews are viewed as the most brilliant of ethnic groups.

    Russian-born Jews who became American soldiers in World War I also scored low on IQ tests. So low, in fact, that Carl Brigham, the creator of the Scholastic Aptitude Test, declared that the results “disprove the popular belief that the Jew is highly intelligent.”

    http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-inferiorIQ.htm

    What??!? Carl Brigham, the creator of the ROSETTA STONE of “Discriminations”; the SAT, thought Jews were stupid based upon the I.Q. tests of Russian Jews? Huh? Has somebody alerted John Rosenberg about this nonsense?

    And let’s talk about these SATs and averages, shall we?

    Hawaii has the largest Asian population percentage in the US, at 58%, 26% white population, and has a 2% African-American population. Vermont has a 96% white population, 1% Asian and .6% African American population. Iowa has a 95% white, 1.4% Asian and 2.3% African American population.

    ON AVERAGE, the SAT composite scores from these states are:

    IOWA: 1195

    VERMONT: 1026

    HAWAII: 1001

    http://www.sde.state.ok.us/test/SAT/SATstateSCORES.pdf.

    What? How can this be? How can the heavily populated Asian state have such lower tier SAT score AVERAGES?

    How can the WHITEST STATE in America, Vermont, score not much higher? Are the whites in Vermont less intelligent than the whites in Iowa? Even MICHIGAN, a state with a LARGE African American population rings in at 1136. How is this possible in your world vision, Will?

    Would you recommend not hiring an Asian American doctor if he or she was born in Hawaii? By your “Averages” argument, they would have scored lower on their SATs. Same thing for white doctors born in Vermont—stay away from those quacks, right, Will?

    Keep bringing up more “averages” , Will. I have literally MILLIONS of averages at my finger tips to refute you with.

    –Cobra

Say What?