Tim Wise, who strikes me as sort of an Al Sharpton in whiteface without the eloquence or religious trappings, was asked at one of his man speeches
whether or not [he] believed that racism — though certainly a problem — might also be something conjured up by people of color in situations where the charge was inappropriate. In other words, did I believe that occasionally folks play the so-called race card, as a ploy to gain sympathy or detract from their own shortcomings?
He replied, in his normal succinct manner:
It’s a question I’m asked often, especially when there are several high-profile news events transpiring, in which race informs part of the narrative. Now is one of those times, as a few recent incidents demonstrate: Is racism, for example, implicated in the alleged rape of a young black woman by white members of the Duke University lacrosse team? Was racism implicated in Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney’s recent confrontation with a member of the Capitol police? Or is racism involved in the ongoing investigation into whether or not Barry Bonds–as he is poised to eclipse white slugger Babe Ruth on the all-time home run list–might have used steroids to enhance his performance?
Although the matter is open to debate in any or all of these cases, white folks have been quick to accuse blacks who answer in the affirmative of playing the race card, as if their conclusions have been reached not because of careful consideration of the facts as they see them, but rather, because of some irrational (even borderline paranoid) tendency to see racism everywhere. So too, discussions over immigration, “terrorist” profiling, and Katrina and its aftermath often turn on issues of race, and so give rise to the charge that as regards these subjects, people of color are “overreacting” when they allege racism in one or another circumstance.
Asked about the tendency for people of color to play the “race card,” I responded as I always do: First, by noting that the regularity with which whites respond to charges of racism by calling said charges a ploy, suggests that the race card is, at best, equivalent to the two of diamonds. In other words, it’s not much of a card to play, calling into question why anyone would play it (as if it were really going to get them somewhere). Secondly, I pointed out that white reluctance to acknowledge racism isn’t new, and it isn’t something that manifests only in situations where the racial aspect of an incident is arguable. Fact is, whites have always doubted claims of racism at the time they were being made, no matter how strong the evidence, as will be seen below. Finally, I concluded by suggesting that whatever “card” claims of racism may prove to be for the black and brown, the denial card is far and away the trump, and whites play it regularly: a subject to which we will return.
I take that as a no.
Wise is a kook and a laughingstock, which he proves at the end of the linked passage, when he professes to have no belief one way or the other about Barry Bonds, and says that, e.g., Babe Ruth’s records should be asterisked. You got to read the whole thing to believe it.
Which means he probably is in great demand on various campuses, right behind Ward Churchill and Chompsky. What a country, as Yakof Smirnoff used to say!
Tim Wise is acutally a hero of mine. Not only does he speak truth to power no matter the opponent or environment, but he supports his statements with reasearch and documentation. (18 citations in the linked article.)
And by the way, Den–Babe Ruth never did face the ALL of the best competition during his playing time. It’s not his fault, of course, but by those standards, the true all-time home run king is Sadaharu Oh, with 868 career home runs.
–Cobra
Couple of points about the Babe…
It is estimated that he hit 300 homers in spring training and other exhibitions during his career; not bad for a converted pitcher, who would have been a hall-of- famer at that position as well, unique in baseball history I believe in that respect as well.
I believe it was in ’21 when he first hit 59 homers, that this was more than any other TEAM had that year, the point being that the difference between the Babe and his contemporaries was and remains a gap of truly unique dimensions, why he remains the most iconic figure American sports has produced, and will probably always remain so. And there’s no reason in the world to think he wouldn’t have hit just as well had the majors been integrated.
The Japanese great Oh was a fine player and I believe a fine man, but the quality of pitching there during his career must have been about like a quality college program here. It was not until fairly recently that any Japanese player successfully made the transition, despite the huge financial rewards that have always been available to a man who could.
And Tim Wise is still a joke.
Leave it to Cobra. Always looking for a way to disenfranchise non black minorities.
On the other hand, there would be some refreshing honesty in attaching astericks to all the awards, degrees and job titles earned through “affirmative action” programs.
Great op-ed by Tim Wise. Good to see that you have a diverse reading list as well, John. As Cobra points out, well researched and well cited article by Wise.
The point of the article was that there is little to be gained by “playing the race card” today, and the effectiveness of the “race card” has always been questionable since non-minorities are so quick to deny it (and in the process call the accuser’s sanity/reason/work ethic into question). So, it’s probably not the case that minorities are playing the race card for leverage.
The most effective part of the article was the list of studies documenting racism and the inattention that those studies garner, suggesting that non-minorities are indeed blind (willfully or otherwise) to racism.
I’m not really sure why Tim Wise is considered an “Al Sharpton.” In fact, I’m not really sure why Al Sharpton is considered an “Al Sharpton.” If we’re going to write-off every prominent figure for an ill-conceived statement, then the GOP is going to be a much smaller party. (see: ” “The British Government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa .” )
And Mikem, while we’re at it let’s also attach asterisks to generations of white males who never had to compete against women, the disabled, or ethnic minorities in education or the workplace.
Although Wise makes some good points, I believe that he overlooks the most crucial aspect of racism: emotional solidarity. Personally, I do believe that many minorities play the race card because 1) Racism truly exists and they see it all the time, leading to: 2) It is easy to feel like any inappropriate charge is racially motivated when it occurs all the time anyway, and 3) Since when are accusations like these logically motivated?
When Mr. Wise gives a good rational argument for why minorities shouldn’t play the race card (it is a two of diamonds anyway and is generally counter-productive). But that’s not ever the reason it is played. It is always an emotional response of disempowerment. Human beings act more often out of emotion than reason. While I think that Wise is trying to get to the bottom of the race card issue, he’s making an assumption about the game that’s being used. It ain’t Bridge. It’s more like Indian Poker.
Wise seems to think that, since the whites have figured it out, the race card no longer has any clout. Thus it’s the two of diamonds.
Not true. Whites have figured it out, but the social mechanisms set up to listen to the race card being played keep acting as if it’s a high trump card. So it works in reality, whatever individual whites think of it.
When a white person is required to modify remarks in a college classroom, or, preferably, self-censor to begin with, because somebody played the race card, feigned taking offense, or in some other way played on the race issue, the race card works. Doesn’t matter that everybody knows it’s happening. It works.
Cobra, this “speaking truth to power” thing has been dead for a long time.
The race hustling lobbing is enormous, powerful and entrenched in government and every corporation.
The race hustling lobby is big business and big government.
Where have you been? “Speaking truth to power” these days is pointing out the shams and deceptions of the race hustlers.
And, Hull, the problem with Sharpton isn’t “ill-conceived statements.” You might consider the Tawana Brawley hoax and inciting to riot, causing the several deaths.
And your recitation of the past is pure propaganda. Generations ago, everybody save for a few lived in poverty and struggled for survival. You are a treasure trove of the sort of brainwashing that has substituted for education in the past two decades. You’ve been fed a phony version of history. You cough it up well.
Hull —
One of those studies Wise cited demonstrating discrimination: “Are Emily and Greg More Employable Than Lakisha and Jamal? A Field Experiment in Labor Market Discrimination.”
What do you think might be the result of a study entitled: “Are Emily and Greg Less Admitable Than Lakisha and Jamal? A Field Experiment in College Admission Discrimination.”
Why is one form of discrimination acceptable while the other is not? How do two wrongs make a right? Isn’t there just as much harm wreaked in purportedly ‘compensatory’ discrimination as there is in the initial discrimination?
Being fair to groups is not a substitute for being fair to all individuals.
Den writes:
>>>”I believe it was in ’21 when he first hit 59 homers, that this was more than any other TEAM had that year, the point being that the difference between the Babe and his contemporaries was and remains a gap of truly unique dimensions, why he remains the most iconic figure American sports has produced, and will probably always remain so. And there’s no reason in the world to think he wouldn’t have hit just as well had the majors been integrated.
The Japanese great Oh was a fine player and I believe a fine man, but the quality of pitching there during his career must have been about like a quality college program here. It was not until fairly recently that any Japanese player successfully made the transition, despite the huge financial rewards that have always been available to a man who could.”
Ahh, but you make Tim Wise’s point with your answer. I believe that the ONLY reason Ruth is viewed as a “singularly” iconic figure is because of segregation in baseball. The reason I feel this way is because Number #2 on the REAL all time home run list is Josh Gibson.
On a level playing field
>>>”A tragic and legendary figure, Josh Gibson was the greatest power hitter in black baseball, pounding out home runs with regularity despite playing most of his career in two of baseball’s most cavernous ballparks: Forbes Field and Griffith Stadium. He utilized a fluid, compact swing to hit for both average and power, and tales of his mammoth home runs became legend. In recorded at-bats against big league pitching, Gibson batted .426. He died just three months before the integration of baseball in the major leagues.”
Hall of Fame Bio
Now, add on the fact that the four position playing Gibby had a career batting average of .373, and the fact the he died of a stroke at age 35, who KNOWS how many homers he could’ve ended up with. Of course, we’ll NEVER know if he would’ve hit his nearly 800 recorded home runs (some estimate he hit 962) in the major leagues. That’s just a minor league tragedy as far as race is concerned in America.
–Cobra
Cobra…
Here is what Wise said regarding baseball at the end of the linked piece:
“Personally, I have no idea whether or not Barry Bonds has used anabolic steroids during the course of his career, nor do I think the evidence marshaled thus far on the matter is conclusive, either way. But I do find it interesting that many are calling for the placement of an asterisk next to Bonds’ name in the record books, especially should he eclipse Ruth, or later, Hank Aaron, in terms of career home runs. The asterisk, we are told, would differentiate Bonds from other athletes, the latter of which, presumably accomplished their feats without performance enhancers. Yet, while it is certainly true that Aaron’s 755 home runs came without any form of performance enhancement (indeed, he, like other black ball-players had to face overt hostility in the early years of their careers, and even as he approached Ruth’s record of 714, he was receiving death threats), for Ruth, such a claim would be laughable. Ruth, as with any white baseball player from the early 1890s to 1947, benefited from the “performance enhancement” of not having to compete against black athletes, whose abilities often far surpassed their own. Ruth didn’t have to face black pitchers, nor vie for batting titles against black home run sluggers. Until white fans demand an asterisk next to the names of every one of their white baseball heroes — Ruth, Cobb, DiMaggio, and Williams, for starters — who played under apartheid rules, the demand for such a blemish next to the name of Bonds can only be seen as highly selective, hypocritical, and ultimately racist. White privilege and protection from black competition certainly did more for those men’s game than creotine or other substances could ever do for the likes of Barry Bonds.”
Wise is an idiot.
First off, from what is on the public record now regarding Bonds, including, not insignificantly, zillions of photos of Bonds before and after his ‘roid use, for Wise to not have an opinion one way or another says all one needs to hear about his “opinions.” They are plainly driven not by the facts but by Wise’ need to side “for” black folk and against “white privilege”. Lord knows why. Except that the ignoramus is apparently unaware that the same people demanding that Bonds’ records be asterisked as those of a “cheater” are calling for the same treatment of McGuire, Sosa, Palmiero and Giambi, three of whom, last I looked, were white. I guess that’s why he forgot that part of the sports conversation going on now.
Second, he asserts that it is “laughable” to think that Ruth’s not competing against black ballplayers was not a “performance enhancement”. I am again laughing at Wise. He acts as if EVERY SINGLE BLACK BALLPLAYER in the Negro Leagues was a superstar. Hogwash. Of course there were greats–Gibson, Bell (whom I have met and chatted with) Paige, you tell me of all the rest. The theft of an opportunity to showcase their skills more widely was a tragedy. But along with them came average and sub-average (for the time of course) ballplayers, just like in the then-Majors. We don’t have to speculate about this completely; we have the record since the color line was broken. Blacks haven’t replaced all but a handful of white stars since ’47, not even close. In the mid-’70s the Majors were about 25% black, last year about 10%. (Baseball is, duh, different from football and basketball, and doesn’t value speed and quickness, attributes which black athletes excel at, nearly as much.) If the majors were integrated during Ruth’s heyday there is no reason to think he wouldn’t have hit just as well against black pitching as he did against white pitching. Now, I will grant you that Gibson (and maybe other black ballplayers–who can know) might have competed with Ruth for home run titles occasionally, along with Foxx, Gehrig and his other white slugging rivals. It remains IMHO laughable, however, to assert that Ruth’s failure to face black PITCHING was a “performance enhancement”. Again, we don’t have to speculate completely–have black pitchers dominated in any time since ’47 such that it can be plausibly stated that they, as a group, are superior pitchers? I find no evidence for this now or in any other decade since integration.
Of course it should be added, as any even casual fan of a certain age knows, integration changed the SPEED of baseball; a glance at the names of Wills, Brock, Henderson et al. evidences this, and Cool Papa Bell would have changed the speed of the game in his day. But I see no basis for arguing that
Ruth’s dominance of his contemporaries AS A POWER HITTER would not have taken place. Gibson? Yes a tradegy, that he died young, and that he couldn’t play in the majors, but I think you overstate his case a little. I think, overall, that the pitching in the Negro Leagues, on average, was maybe the equivalent of the high minors (certainly not everyone was Satchel), and that therefore Gibson’s power stats probably reflected that, and that perhaps, if he could have, he might have played the role of another Gehrig or Foxx to Ruth, but not Ruth’s equal by a wide margin. No one was.
Finally, as if Wise wasn’t satisfied at the job he otherwise did in making a fool of himself, he adds the names of “Dimaggio and Williams, for starters” to his list of those who “played under apartheid rules”. Any real baseball fan knows that Dimaggio’s and Williams’ careers spanned both eras, Dimaggio retired in ’51 and Williams after the ’59 season, and with respect to Williams, any moderately informed person knows that among the most notable facts of his career is that he lost 5 prime years to wartime service. To say Ted Williams career should be asterisked is plain stupid. Wise should go back to his sandbox of “white privilege” studies and let the adults talk about the serious issues of the day, like whether Williams (or Gibson) could have come close to Ruth’s stats if they had a chance!
Tim Wise – Take it for what you think it’s worth. I’m satisfied that people read his work and had to think about it. If you think he’s full of hot air, fine, but at least you took the time to read a differing opinion.
Shouting Thomas – You think Al Sharpton created the Tawana Brawley incident and/or single-handedly started a riot? If you could pull up an article that confirms that, I’d be interested in taking a look at it. Also, if you could point to an article or study that supports the notion that a powerful “race lobby” or “race hustle” exists, that would be very educational.
Eddy – “Are Emily and Greg Less Admitable Than Lakisha and Jamal?” I don’t think historical or present admissions numbers support the premise that whites are somehow less “admittable” than minorities. I did a quick google search and I was unable to find a study that shows that whites are admitted to college at lower rates than minorities. I did find a US Census presss release that states that Asians have a higher group percentage of college graduates than whites, but that does not mean that they are admitted at a higher rate. Still, I don’t think reality matches your assertion. Again, if you are aware of a study that supports your claim please share it.
Also, on Mr. Aubrey’s point: “When a white person is required to modify remarks in a college classroom, or, preferably, self-censor to begin with, because somebody played the race card, feigned taking offense, or in some other way played on the race issue, the race card works. Doesn’t matter that everybody knows it’s happening. It works.”
So, basically what you are saying is that when white people are compelled to not be offensive, minorities have invoked some power (“the race card”) against them? Is that a bad thing?
Why do you think minorities are “feigning offense?” Do you think that because something is not offensive to you, then it shouldn’t be offensive to anybody? Or do you take issue with the entire concept of being offended?
If you do take issue with the entire concept of “being offended” then I would ask if there is anything that you think is offensive? Is burning the flag offensive? Is pornogrophy in public settings offensive? If someone outside of your family speaks ill of your mother, wife, or child; is that offensive? Are you familiar with the concept of “fighting words”?
It just boggles the mind. Even homeruns get s caught up as a racial issue. The defensiveness of unreal.
Can we forget about making every flipping think a racial issue is the music industry.
They struggled for each penny even though they created the greatest, pure American export, the blues/rock, R&B music. If it wasn’t for the great British “Invasion” muscians who were all inspired by Americna music that most American’s never heard and played songs by those great black American musical pioneers.
The combination of them and especially one Jewish immigrant, whose parents were killed in concentration camps as he came an inch from the same fate, Bill Graham who put the three Kings,Freddie, Albert and BB, Howlin Wolf, The Ike and Tina Turner review and so many others before they passed away to incredibly enthusiastic young, mostly white audiences.
Wnat to hear a joke? A man who never wrote a song in his life, was at best, amateur level in his guitar playing and innovated nothing is called the “King of Rock N Roll” by those who are totally ignorant.
Sam Philips was looking for a white man who can sing black and Elvis could do that, he had the right looks and those phony charm. Sam Philips will tell you how the best he has ever seen was Howlin Wolf and the great regret of his career was the he lost recoding Howlin to Chess records. No comparison on any level to Elvis. The man who died with more drugs in his body than any other person to ever have their body examined in a morgue.
Hull,
Yes, Sharpton was the cause of the Tawana Brawley fraud. He lost a slander lawsuit to former Dutchess County DA for his reckless allegations and demagoguery.
The proof of the existence of a powerful and entrench race hustling lobby is you. That malarkey that you recite on cue is the demagoguery of an educational system controlled by the race hustling lobby. You are Exhibit A. Next thing you’ll be telling me is that blacks don’t really score 10 points lower on average on IQ tests than whites. (Oh, it’s culturally biased. Party line.)
In my previous job, I wrote the online course for our managers… and not incidently read the major management texts of the 1990s. Managers were taught, literally, nothing in the 90s except how to operate a racial and sexual quota system. The result was a generation of incompetent managers.
And, here’s a link to Sharpton’s anti-Semitic outbursts that led directly to the arson of Freddy’s in Harlem. 8 people died as a result of Sharpton’s demagoguery.
http://www.jewishpost.com/jewishpost/jpn201g.html
I’d suggest that you find a way to detox yourself from the bizarre race hustling indoctrination you’ve received. The next time you feel the kneejerk desire to blame whites and find an excuse for blacks, stand up on a mountaintop and try to think for yourself, if only for a moment.
Hull. Nobody is protected from being offended. See the First Amendment.
However, what I was talking about–as you know but hope to obfuscate–is feigned offense. Not the real thing.
When, for example, somebody quotes the difference in black on white crime and white on black crime and somebody thinks that’s inconvenient to his argument on victimization, he can feign offense and the stats are supposed to go away and the speaker to shut up.
The race card is used to stifle inconvenient disucssion, as you know and apparently want to preserve as a manipulative technique.
Got it? We know what’s happening. But the system still reacts as if it’s genuine. And in some cases, such as classrooms or on campus, the system has actual power to punish the accused.
Den writes:
>>>”But I see no basis for arguing that
Ruth’s dominance of his contemporaries AS A POWER HITTER would not have taken place. Gibson? Yes a tradegy, that he died young, and that he couldn’t play in the majors, but I think you overstate his case a little. I think, overall, that the pitching in the Negro Leagues, on average, was maybe the equivalent of the high minors (certainly not everyone was Satchel), and that therefore Gibson’s power stats probably reflected that, and that perhaps, if he could have, he might have played the role of another Gehrig or Foxx to Ruth, but not Ruth’s equal by a wide margin. No one was.”
Nobody’s taking anything away from Babe Ruth as far as his abilities are concerned. He was an iconic figure in Americana. But for you to claim that he had “no equal” is not borne out by the facts about Gibson.
The great thing about sports that transcends our great debates at “Discriminations” is that statistics and circumstances are extremely hard to debate.
You can’t knock Josh Gibson for facing “inferior pitching” when his Hall of Fame Biography clearly states:
>>>”In recorded at-bats against big league pitching, Gibson batted .426.”
That would tell any HONEST person that facing white pitchers (“big league” pitching) was not the kryptonite for black batters as you seem to imply. Didn’t Jackie Robinson bat .311 for his career? Secondly, the Ruth era was personified by extended innings for starting pitchers,(no “hold specialists” or “middle inning relievers”).
Take 1920, when Ruth led the league in homers with 54. The best pitcher in the league that year with Jim Bagby who was 31-12, with a 2.89 ERA and 30 complete games! 339.2 innings pitched.
Compare that with 2006–
Bartolo Colon was American League Cy Young at 21-8, with a 3.48 ERA and only 2 complete games, 222.7 innings pitched.
I’m not saying Ruth wasn’t legendary. He was Baseball’s first true slugger, noting that his first home run season record set by him was only 29. But can you imagine a slugger today getting to face an average big league pitcher on only three days rest 5 times a game?
Den writes:
>>>”We don’t have to speculate about this completely; we have the record since the color line was broken. Blacks haven’t replaced all but a handful of white stars since ’47, not even close. In the mid-’70s the Majors were about 25% black, last year about 10%.”
Now THIS is a debate that we OFTEN engage in here at “Discriminations.” For you to make that statement about the paucity of “blacks” in Major League Baseball is a question of semantics. I will grant that there may be a lower percentage of “African-American” players, but you’re not going to sit here and tell me that David Ortiz, Carlos Delgado, Miquel Tejada, Vladimir Guerrero, Pedro Martinez, and the countless other “dark skinned” Latino ballplayers are “not black.”
Hispanic is NOT a racial classification.
You’re also not going to sit here and tell me they would have welcomed with open arms into baseball if they played back in Babe Ruth’s era.
Den writes:
>>>”Except that the ignoramus is apparently unaware that the same people demanding that Bonds’ records be asterisked as those of a “cheater” are calling for the same treatment of McGuire, Sosa, Palmiero and Giambi, three of whom, last I looked, were white. I guess that’s why he forgot that part of the sports conversation going on now.”
Those other players may be mentioned in the steroid controversy, but NONE of them come close to the witchhunt over Bonds, unless you can tell me which of those other players are subject to a grand jury investigation right now.
–Cobra
Cobra
I am going to try and explain to you again a little bit of what I said, but I don’t think you can comprehend very well what I type.
You completely miss the point about virtually everything I talked about: comparing 1920’s players skills with 2006 (a subject I didn’t raise), then vere off into a discussion about a “paucity” -not my word or implication-of blacks. I just mentioned the percentage-neither good nor bad-to show that it wouldn’t appear that one race in baseball is necessarily more talented (which Wise plainly implied–go read it again if you have to), a point lost on a base racialist thinker like yourself. I guess you think something is wrong about the percent of black ballplayers being roughly equal to the population. I think that is, um, normal, but I don’t want to have to explain it further.
Never said or implied blacks couldn’t hit white pitchers, don’t know where you got that one. I said Ruth would have hit black pitchers…oh, hell why even try, read my ***** post again, and a fourth time if you have to.
“You’re also not going to sit here and tell me…”
Um, I’ll sit here and tell you whatever I–and the site proprietor–will publish. Cheesh, you apparently halucinate something about me telling you blacks in 1920 would have been welcomed… Oh hell again, why even try. You need to get new reading glasses.
And the players I mentioned, McGuire et al., were subpoenaed before Congress, and if they broke any laws I’m sure they’ll be investigated; except of course for the white ones, being as it’s all a racist conspiracy. Guess someone forgot to circulate the memo about letting Pete Rose off.
You didn’t address virtually anything I said.
Wise remains an idiot, and I can now see why you describe him as your “hero.”
Just a matter of your perspective, Den. I take your posts, read it, read it again BETWEEN the lines, and then make commentary on such as I see fit.
I guess it could be frustrating to you, and some other Discriminations posters that I disagree with their positions, support my counter positions with facts and display no desire to bow to the whim of the majority.(no pun intended)
Thou doth protest too much, methinks if you don’t see that I PULL QUOTED statements you made that I disagreed with and provided a counter argument, which happened to include my opinions, which are indeed as Constitutionally protected as yours…at least since 1964.
–Cobra
O.k., Shouting Thomas: Al Sharpton did not cause the Tawana Brawley hoax. Tawana Brawley caused the Tawana Brawley hoax. He took on her “cause” after she alleged that she was raped. That does not mean that he caused the incident.
On the Freddie’s Fashion Mart fire – I read the transcripts you linked and saw no language from Sharpton that suggested or stated that someone should set fire to anything. From what I’ve read, Sharpton called a Jewish shopkeeper a “white interloper” and stood-by while an associate suggested that the shop should be burned down. Again, Al Sharpton did not cause the fire.
But, point taken, Al Sharpton is not a great person. However, that doesn’t mean that Tim Wise is an “Al Sharpton”.
On your proof of a “race hustling lobby” being . . . me?: That is quite a statement. Like your comments on Al Sharpton, it doesn’t exactly prove your point, but it’s very flattering nevertheless. Anytime you’d like to talk about race and IQ I’d be happy to entertain that conversation, particularly as you, yourself appear to be evidence contradicting your hypothesis.
Mr. Aubrey: You don’t see how your comments fall exactly into the topics Tim Wise discusses in his article? You claim that minorities are “feigning offense” when someone cites statistics that suggest that blacks are more of a danger to whites than whites are to blacks (this despite the fact that blacks make up only 12.8% of the population). You are saying that Black people are “feigning offense” when white people try to “prove” that Blacks are dangerous??? Or going back to “Shouting Thomas”, are Black people “feigning offense” when white people try to “prove” that Blacks are intellectually inferior???
So if I start rattling off statistics about how dangerous white people are to blacks or how inferior white people are; are you going to “feign offense” or will you actually be offended?
The fact that people can stand up with a straight face and seriously try to debate how dangerous or inferior a race of people is speaks volumes on the reasons why minorities still claim that racism exists.
Also, Tim Wise’s knowledge or lack of knowledge of baseball does not prove or disprove whether he is “an idiot.”
Hull
Good to see you again;
What a stirring defense of Wise you make; I am impressed.
“…Also Tim Wise’s knowledge or lack of knowledge of baseball does not prove or disprove whether he is an ‘idiot'”
Um, ok, what are the criteria by which normal sensate humans can judge whether he is an idiot? Logic? Facts? You tell me how we can determine it.
Hey, I didn’t ask him to give his opinions on baseball; he chose to.
Yes, he is an idiot; based on those silly opinions of his. Care to be specific as to your argument, or is it just more of the same racism nonsense.
Yes Den, logic and facts are a better way to measure whether someone is “an idiot” than knowledge of baseball. You say Tim Wise is an idiot based on “those silly opinions of his.” But other than your tempest in a teacup debate on Bonds, I haven’t seen you make any substantive argument challenging any of Wise’s opinions. The Wise article is evidence and the burden is not on me to disprove that Wise is “an idiot”. The burden is on you to pick apart the article and prove that he IS an “idiot.” If the space on this board is insufficient feel free to email me at email hidden; JavaScript is required.
“Just a matter of your perspective, Den. I take your posts, read it, read it again BETWEEN the lines, and then make commentary on such as I see fit.”
This is just a long-winded way of saying you twist what people say to make your arguments. Try taking what people say at face value and argue from there. Reading “BETWEEN the lines” is just disengenuous.
Sharon writes:
>>>”This is just a long-winded way of saying you twist what people say to make your arguments. Try taking what people say at face value and argue from there. Reading “BETWEEN the lines” is just disengenuous.”
Sharon, if you or any other poster puts out facts and other statistics from reliable sources to substantiate their viewpoints, fine. Rhetoric, propaganda, talking points and bumper-sticker sloganeering doesn’t rise to the level of “indesputable facts”.
A claim that I “twist what people say to make my arguments” is just a face-saving way of saying I’m very good at whacking right winged ideology and obfuscation.
Thanks for the compliments!
–Cobra
Isn’t the race card most often used to deprecate members of another race or ethnic group for expressing their grievances, or simply for being who they are? It is played by everyone when you get right down to it.
The inappropriately named Tom Wise is an idiot as far as I am concerned.
What does he have in mind? He reaches his undoubted apogee when he seems to advocate sending more young white men to jail to balance things out. If he thinks there is an injustice being perpetrated, he should propose a real solution.
If his comments were intended as political theater, I could understand his making them. But they are not. This fool really believes what he is saying.
Was the hurricane Katrina debacle really caused by racism? Or was it combination of very bad luck, a self-absorbed governor who no one will accuse of incompetence because she was a white woman, and federal incompetence on the middle management level?
Let’s get real here. How did the idea get started anyway that every injustice suffered by non-whites has its remedy in an act of retribution against some segment of the white population – with the impact falling mostly on individuals from working class and economically disadvantaged backgrounds who have made good in America, or want to? It doesn’t matter whether the issue is athletic, artistic, academic, professional, literary, vocational or business aspiration. That white person who is not privileged enough to succeed in the world of disproportionate thinking Tom Wise and the myriad other popular front liberals of his ilk inhabit is inadequate, according to them.
I want to finish up here with a comment on Wise’s all-knowing observations about Barry Bonds.
Before the apparent steroid phase of Bonds’ career, his year-by-year offensive statistics match up pretty well with a ballplayer of the 1930s, -40s and -50s named Johnny Mize. Mize, who lost four prime years to wartime service was a pretty good ballplayer and a legitimate Hall of Famer. But no one has ever said that Mize was the greatest ballplayer of all time. Neither was Barry Bond up to the age of 35.
If you think that steroids does not make a player better, consider what Jose Canseco had to say. Canseco was the best player in baseball for about five or six years early in his career. Canseco recently admitted using steroids throughout his career, and went on the say that without them he never even would have been in the major leagues at all.
You can say the same thing about Bonds’ performance after the age of 35. Without considering something beyond weight training, and the indubitable elements of talent and mental discipline, there is no explanation for his producing his most prolific offensive numbers in his late 30s. Nor is he the only athlete whose numbers are being questioned.