What’s The Problem?

According to an article in the Detroit News, “Schools In Michigan Remain Segregated, Findings Show.” (HatTip to reader Paul Engel)

The article reports a good deal of handwringing over the lack of “progress”:

Black and white students aren’t attending school together any more than they did 12 years ago, even with the addition of charter and school choice policies, according to a Michigan State University study.

….

“You would think after 50 years we would see some progress,” said David Plank, co-director of the Education Policy Center. “In Michigan, there hasn’t been any progress.

“Parents are moving their students from racially segregated (traditionally public) schools to racially segregated charters.”

But in the absence of racial school assignments, is this necessarily a problem? Should the state step in and require “diversity”? Do you remember busing?

Oddly, there is what struck me as an incongruous emphasis on charter schools as contributing to this “problem,” even though, as Mr. Plank admits,

weren’t touted as a way to integrate schools, Plank said. But it was a potential result, given parents were no longer restricted to districts where they lived.

Ah, the dreams of reformers foiled once again by silly parents, whose misplaced criteria led them to be concerned only with the quality, not the color, of their children’s schools.

Dan Quisenberry, president of the Michigan Association of Public School Academies, said diversity is important but the large numbers of parents choosing charters shows that a school’s quality is a higher priority for parents.

“You’ve got to do the basics first,” Quisenberry said.

Telly James said she isn’t surprised or concerned by lack of diversity in charters.

Her daughter is a third-grader at Detroit’s Woodward Academy and the school’s racial makeup wasn’t on her mind when she decided to send her there.

“The city is predominantly black,” James said.

“When the neighborhood is black, the school is going to reflect it.”

Makes good sense to me, but poor Plank is confused:

Plank said he is surprised that the integration of schools, which has been such a prominent issue for the last 50 years, has fallen off the map.

“This is an issue we simply don’t talk about anymore,” Plank said.

Maybe “we” don’t talk about it so much because what “we” were always concerned about was discrimination and school quality, not “diversity.”

Say What? (21)

  1. anonymous February 22, 2006 at 1:10 pm | | Reply

    in fairness, school segregation is mostly a function of residential segregation and residential segregation in michigan is pretty suspicious. in most cities there’s a sort of gradient between black neighborhoods and white neighborhoods. for instance, in manhattan, one starts to see a fair number of blacks in the upper west side, well before one gets to Harlem. likewise for many other cities. however in Detroit racial segregation perfectly maps onto residential boundaries. you can see eight mile from space and i have the GIS maps to prove it.

  2. Laura February 22, 2006 at 7:35 pm | | Reply

    Our neighborhoods in Memphis are far more integrated than our schools are. I blame the legacy of busing for this. People will not be told where their child must attend school, but nobody was trying to tell them where to live.

  3. John Rosenberg February 22, 2006 at 8:24 pm | | Reply

    anon – It is true that school “segregation” often closely tracks residential patterns, but the question is whether this is a problem to be solved, whether there is something unfortunate about charter schools that do not attract a perfectly balanced racial mix of students. Even where the residential patterns are clearly the result of past discrimination, I’m not sure that there is any solution to this problem (if it is a problem). Finally, as someone who grew up with what I continue to regard as “real” segregation, the de facto kind lamented here strikes me as even less than a pale imitation.

  4. anonymous February 22, 2006 at 11:37 pm | | Reply

    john,

    my point was just that detroit has a suspicious level of segregation. while obviously there’s no Jim Crow in 2006 Michigan, there may be discrimination in real estate, something like that.

    as you said though, it’s not clear that this is a policy problem, that policy could fix it if it were a problem, or that it would be morally right to have the state invoke race even if it would work.

  5. Cobra February 23, 2006 at 7:42 am | | Reply

    Anon writes:

    >>>”my point was just that detroit has a suspicious level of segregation. while obviously there’s no Jim Crow in 2006 Michigan, there may be discrimination in real estate, something like that.

    as you said though, it’s not clear that this is a policy problem, that policy could fix it if it were a problem, or that it would be morally right to have the state invoke race even if it would work.”

    Which has been a point of contention for me since posting here. There are obvious PRIORITIES at work here. Of COURSE there’s evidence of housing discrimination against African Americans in 2006, just like there’s evidence of other virulent forms of discrimination in lending, employment and law enforcement.

    Apparently, the zeal to address and provide solutions to these issues doesn’t rise to the level emoted by my anti-affirmative action friends for OTHER issues.

    I’ve dubbed it “selective outrage.”

    –Cobra

  6. Anita February 23, 2006 at 9:42 am | | Reply

    all outrage is selective. everyone can’t be angry about everything. it’s not possible. you pick and chose what concerns you the most.

  7. John Rosenberg February 23, 2006 at 10:06 am | | Reply

    cobra – In part we agree (!), which means we disagree. I believe we should feel outrage at ALL racial discrimination. Where it can be shown that realtors, banks, whatever discriminate, I think that should be hit hard and fully prosecuted. Discrimination is both wrong and illegal.

    Where we disagree is over what counts as evidence — in your case, usually proof — of discrimination. For you “underrepresentation” is enough. And even admitted specific intent — as with racial discrimination in favor of minorities — is not enough.

  8. superdestroyer February 23, 2006 at 11:45 am | | Reply

    Come on Cobra,

    Detroit has had black leadership for over 20 years. If anybody has been discrimianted against, it is the middle class people who had to flee Detroit in order to have a decent life.

  9. sharon February 23, 2006 at 11:50 am | | Reply

    I wonder if part of the segregation of Detroit is not similar to other cities where minorities were historically separated from other groups and tend to stay in those areas. I’ve seen that affect in the city I grew up in (pop. about 500,000). The truly desegregated areas are the newer subdivisions, but the old neighborhoods still tend to be of one ethnic group or another.

  10. Chetly Zarko February 23, 2006 at 12:33 pm | | Reply

    Cobra,

    “Selective outrage” goes both directions though. You should be outraged when you see violations of the CRA against anyone.

    Regardless, I have consistently commented on and shown outrage at “traditional” discrimination cases, and in cases involving blacks.

    The housing cases you refer to: outrageous. You just don’t seem to remember when we speak out against it. Or even some non-traditional cases, like the current pending complaint against the U-Michigan Engineering Department that the DOE is investigating. Whether that turns out to be “traditional” or something new in civil rights law, I don’t know, and I find it outrageous for reasons other than what I believe the students themselves believe.

    Regardless, John, I propose that if you do find news of “traditional” discrimination, you occasionally post it here -not as a conciliation of anything, but because it fits the mission of the blog. But I predict it won’t “satisfy” Cobra, and he’ll try to use it as “evidence” of need for preferences.

  11. vnjagvet February 23, 2006 at 8:03 pm | | Reply

    There is another story today about a Harvard study claiming that California has the most “segregated” education system of any state in the country, and that other states have not improved since.

    But all “segregation” now is, as John points out what has been termed de facto segregation, which was not the type of segregation addressed in Brown and its progeny.

    It seems to me that the school voucher programs combined with open enrollment in public schools to achieve true freedom of choics might go a long way to reducing this problem.

    I wonder if anyone is willing to try it?

  12. Cobra February 23, 2006 at 10:16 pm | | Reply

    Chetly writes:

    >>>”Regardless, John, I propose that if you do find news of “traditional” discrimination, you occasionally post it here -not as a conciliation of anything, but because it fits the mission of the blog. But I predict it won’t “satisfy” Cobra, and he’ll try to use it as “evidence” of need for preferences.”

    Actually, Chetly, I think my personal “satisfaction” is irrelevant on this topic, but you raise a good point. There are SOME people on your “side of the argument” that will observe what you describe as “traditional discrimination”, basically shake their heads, and offer a five second cliche about “laws already on the books”–that is, if they even acknowledge its existance in the first place. That’s generally the best case scenario.

    At its worst, SOME on your side of the argument will blame the “traditional discrimination” on those being discriminated against, perhaps deeming it a failure of character, culture, genetics or a combination of such.

    I believe if one approaches a controversial subject with the goal to sway opponents to their position, and not show an earnest understanding of how the opponent CAME to their position, it will be an extremely arduous task, if not impossible.

    THAT is why I AGREE with some of your last post, and a few of your latest ones, because you seem to at least acknowlege the existance of the conditions I describe, and although we aren’t on the same page as far as actions, your admission of the “problem” puts you in a far better position than those who deny the “problem exists.

    vnjagvet writes:

    >>>”It seems to me that the school voucher programs combined with open enrollment in public schools to achieve true freedom of choics might go a long way to reducing this problem.

    I wonder if anyone is willing to try it?”

    Vouchers is a complicated issue. Again, I see the merits of “school choice”, but as a remedy for segregation? I don’t think it is. If the neighborhoods are segregated, and the better schools are in neighborhoods miles away, “school choice” adds up to “bussing with cars.” If vouchers are meant for Private school tuition, exactly which schools are being subsidized with my tax dollars, and what guarantees are there that they’ll even ADMIT the number of students who want to go there? The religious aspect creeps in, and standards.

    –Cobra

  13. T February 24, 2006 at 1:17 am | | Reply

    Banks don’t discriminate against blacks in lending at all. Many blacks just have abysmal credit histories and are charged more interest according to the risk they present to the bank. When you correct for credit history, there is no discrepancy between rates charged for blacks and whites. None.

    There is discrimination in housing, though. Unfortunately for black racists like Cobra, its based on income rather than race. How is it possible for blacks to demand equivalent rates of income and success when 40-45% of blacks drop out of high school? In the city I live in (major metro area), 55% of black men have a criminal record. Kind of tough to get a good job as an ex-con, huh? Maybe the easy money from selling drugs, stealing cars, burglary, and street vice wasn’t such a good idea. I know why you black racists are so scared of losing the quota jobs, though, because these stats are occuring even WITH AA handouts! Once those quota jobs are gone, things get truly apocalyptic, don’t they?

    I have some news for the Cobras of the world. With the unstoppable flow of illegal aliens into the country (who really believes we’re going to round these people into railroad cars and send them back to Mexico?) and the outsourcing of good white and blue collar jobs overseas, the days of the quota job are coming to an end. We are moving into a recession now, and as unemployment rises, look for a great number of political changes in 2006 and 2008. It won’t be for more quotas, I’ll tell you that! People are far more apt to be generous when times are good. But when they have to struggle to find even a decent job, much less one with some security, benefits, and pension, that sense of charity will evaporate and be replaced with self-presevation. The writing is on the wall. Forty years of blaming whitey, denial, and the lowering of standards rather than getting your own game together was a big mistake. You blacks aren’t just competing against whites anymore, but also mexicans, chinese, japanese–in fact, the whole world!

    People before could flee the multi-culti nonsense. They’re still trying, but its not working anymore. They have been backed into a corner, and now they are starting to fight. You see this with the immigration issue, the MCRI, the UAE ports scandal, etc. Social Security and Medicare are bankrupt, and the baby boomers are starting to retire. Pensions are evaporating, manufacturing is going overseas, GM and Ford are next to bankrupt (GM debt is a mind-bogling 250 billion dollars!), government spending, debt, and taxation are out of control, etc. This is still just the beginning. Life’s gonna get a lot uglier here in America real soon. And it won’t be in the minorities’ favor Cobra. Take that to the bank, buddy!

  14. Anita February 24, 2006 at 10:08 am | | Reply

    I don’t know if T’s comments about the economy are correct. I hope not. But in any case, I object to his tone, which is nasty. Let’s stick to the facts, whatever they are. It may be true that in T’s city 55% of black men have records. But T almost accuses all of us of being drug dealers, etc. I comment on this site because people can have heated discussions without invective, most of the time. Let’s not change that.

  15. John Rosenberg February 24, 2006 at 10:36 am | | Reply

    Anita – I agree, appreciate your comment, and am sorry I didn’t say something earlier.

    T – You’re more than welcome to comment, and make arguments and point to facts that some readers will not like, but please try to keep your tone a bit more civil. I’m not sure how long you’ve been reading, but let me say (as cobra can attest) that I’m a color-blind scolder. All comments, from whatever source, should remain civil. Other than your tone, I believe you misunderstand the support for MCRI in Michigan if you think all, or even most, of it comes from people who feel backed in a corner and are fighting mad.

  16. Chetly Zarko February 24, 2006 at 1:59 pm | | Reply

    Wow. Have we come to some kind of mutual respect here?

    Regardless, I rarely here people say there isn’t a problem or a racial divide, and have never heard any of those I consider informed on the issue or those in MCRI leadership roles say such a thing. We all talk about how its a different solution and approach to the problem.

    Perhaps the media doesn’t like that or report our in-depth arguments (its not “sensational” and BAMN is more than willing to provide simple, sensational stuff).

  17. Chetly Zarko February 24, 2006 at 2:04 pm | | Reply

    Oh, and T – tone it down. Whether you’re right or wrong about the economy – and although its certainly correct that racial preferences result in social “Balkanization” and group resource battles – I know no one in MCRI leadership that is doing this for those reasons. I’m not in a corner and am not really interested personally in the benefits to whites of ending racial preferences, but rather the philosophical reasons and practical benefits to the alleged beneficiaries.

  18. T February 24, 2006 at 10:01 pm | | Reply

    I bet my tone is bad because I called Cobra a black racist. I’ve been aware of this blog for a long time, at least two years, and I pop in on it to read every few months or so. Nothing changes much. John posts articles on blatantly illegal racist actions by schools, government, and corporations in favor of minorities. People comment that what is blatantly illegal is, in fact, blatantly illegal. And Cobra, Actus (is he still here?), and others make silly rationalizations for why blatantly racist illegal actions are indeed okay, becasue they are well (or really not so well) intentioned. When a general case is made, Cobra shifts to the particular. When the particular is brought up, he shifts the focus to the general. When the past is brought up, he counters with the present. When the present is brought up, he counters with the past. And on and on and on it goes, round and round, and nobody convinces anybody else. And yet the “discussion” is somehow valuable, because it is an exchange. Holy Jesus! Nobody even listens to the other guy! Are you nuts?

    Cobra is obviously a racist. He doesn’t care if whites get the shaft, especially white men, because blacks got shafted in the past. The present system is okay because he benefits from it. He doesn’t care if its illegal or not, and he will never admit it, at least not to you.

    Ergo the endless rationalizations. John is okay with that, because he doesn’t want the blog to be and echo chamber, and so he’s willing to tolerate black racists like Cobra, whereas, if a white racist were on the blog, they would be cut immediately. Sounds kind of like the double standard you post in your articles, doesn’t it?

    Everybody knows what’s going on is illegal. EVERYBODY. My guess is that Chetly and John, though well-intentioned, don’t feel backed into a corner because they haven’t felt the sting of the present system. I haven’t either, to tell you the truth. But I bet they wouldn’t be so sanguine if they personally got the shaft, like that girl who sued U of M because she was cheated. Or if they worked construction and got fired so the boss could hire two illegals and not pay taxes. Lots of people have been backed into a corner, whether you are willing to admit it or not. Lucky for you that you both live so high up that it hasn’t touched you yet. But perhaps in the future you won’t be so lucky. And Chetly, lets be honest, you got 500,000 signatures for your initiative. There is no way you can possibly speak for all those people, and, of course, the people you know may misrepresent their intentions for the sake of putting on a good face. I guess we all have to play the Moral High Ground game. But we all know the real motivations in play.

    I wish you good luck with the MCRI. I think the politicians will violate it like they do the Civil Rights Act, and the state and federal courts will find a way around it, like they do now. Actually, I am sure of it. Then you guys can spend the next 50 years spinning round and round with the politicians, judges, and activists ad nauseum while the system essentially stays in place because it buys the politicians votes and puts money in their campaign coffers, while you don’t. As long as whites are split 50-50, you will get nowhere. Blacks get government graft because they vote 90% for democrats. the only way the republicans can get them away is if they offer more graft. Contrary to the argument that blacks get so little from the democrats, because they are taken for granted, the truth is that they are given voluminous graft from the dems, and offer that canard up to try to increase their graft from both dems and reps. All the while more is taken from you. Higher and higher the taxes go, Higher and higher the deficits pile up. And further and further down the toilet we go. The schools stink, the culture stinks, jobs are leaving in droves, deficits and debt spirals hyperbolically upward,etc. Yet another round of hellish circles.

    Anita, I live in Chicago. Fifty-five percent of black males is the MAJORITY of males! And the figures are not much different for LOTS of cities, large and small, across the United States. And these are just the guys who got caught! Blacks commit 3/4 of all crime here in Chicago, yet they are only about a third of the population. That’s a hell of a lot of crime, lady, no matter how you stack it. Blacks have committed hundreds of thousands of murders against whites in the past 40-50 years here in America, and many hundreds of thousands of rapes of white women, and hundreds of billions of dollars in theft, property crime, and welfare and disability fraud. If that is not a war, I don’t know what is. I know an attack when I see one. And yet all we hear from blacks is “4000 lynchings, 4000 lynchings!” Whites have saved BILLIONS of people’s lives around the world through immunization, medicine, financial aid, technology, and agriculture, including hundreds of millions of people’s lives in Africa, but all we hear is “20 million died from slavery genocide, 20 million died from slavery genocide!” There is no respect, no recognition, and no gratitude EVER demonstrated for that. You’re right. I’m sick of it, and I’ll let you know it, just like you let us know about all your grievances.

    Since I can’t be as bloodless and abstract as many would wish on this forum, this will be my fourth and last post. But I will tell you how all this will end. Affirmative Action will be overturned, not by the politicians or the courts, or even the ballot box. No, Affirmative Action will be overturned the same way it was erected, through boycotts of private businesses and corporations, which eventually will filter, through campaign contributions, to the government. You see, politicians will be the last ones to enforce the law. You don’t realize that, but you have to in order to be effective. Yes, we are going to form CONSUMER, STOCK, and BONDHOLDER movements to get rid of affirmative action. First we will start with pricey, big-ticket items, like auto companies. This prevents those who oppose our boycotts from picking up a small item or two to counteract us, because who can afford to buy a new car or two? Both Ford and GM are VERY vulnerable. Once they turn, and fire their quota hires, the foreign companies will turn too. All of the auto compainies’ parts suppliers, dealerships, law, accounting, advertising and media, and other companies whom they do business with will be required to get rid of their quota hires if they want the auto makers business. This includes newspapers, TV, and radio. We go after small ticket producers, like, say, Quaker Oats, not by boycotting Quaker Oats per se, but supermarket chains, until, one by one, they turn, get rid of their quota hires, etc. Then we get the distributors to boycott Quaker Oats. you watch how fast Quaker Oats turns then! And on and on. Then we get the corporations to give money only to politicians, both democrat and republican, who oppose AA. They will then lie to you, Mr. and Mrs. Minority, at election time, and do something else once they get in office, like they do to us now. Government quota hires will never be directly fired from the government. So we will privatize all of the government services, and then we get merit-based hiring back. And this can all happen rather quickly, easily within 10-15 years. No ballots, no judges, no initiatives, just direct action. Don’t think it can work, huh? Ninety percent of all the wealth in America is owned by those identifying themselves as conservatives. That’s quite a hammer. Blacks and other minorities will boycott? Whites still make up 70% of the population. And just about every business will run if even a small part of that boycotts, as that is what will mean the difference between a profitable and unprofitable company. Blacks will riot, and hurt/maim/kill whites. You do this already. But there will be little sympathy once you become the victimizers, rather than the victims. Nobody likes those who attack the innocent. Any bad behaviour will only dig the hole deeper. Whites just won’t do it, they’re too good-hearted. Watch that turn as good jobs continue to flee the country and illegals displace native workers. It will be one hell of a fight. Yes it will, but fighting for our rights, our children’s rights, our brothers and sisters and friends and relatives rights is a powerful motivator, as you well know. And you also know the pendulum never stops in the middle, that when AA is gone, you will be discrimated against. All I can say is, you had your chance to prove yourself and keep others good will, and you blew it. If someone is going to get discriminated against, better you than me. If you don’t like that sentiment, its exactly the same one I see all the time from blacks and other minorities. The darn thing just won’t swing back to the middle! You still have the remedy of the CRA and if you get the proof, you can take them to court. Still, a very tough road. But no more blanket punishment for us. That’s probably the best that we can do.

    For what its worth, I was just tooling around last night, and commented on a few posts, as I was bored. In fact, I’m somewhat ashamed that I got lured into the virtual reality of commenting on blogs these last few months rather than acted in the real world. The real world is the only one that counts, anyway, not circular commentary on some website. So what I’ve done this past evening is looked up the information on many conservative organizations in my area. This spring I am going to start contacting them and pitching my idea for this boycotting organization. And the way race relations are up here, I will get plenty of bites I’m sure. I will bet you we could, if we worked hard, be ready for some serious boycotts by late 2007 or early 2008. And I think it will surprise you all, Anita, John, Cobra, and Chetly, just how backed into the corner people many people feel. Good luck with the discussion thing, though.

  19. Cobra February 25, 2006 at 1:02 am | | Reply

    Cobra writes:

    >>>”At its worst, SOME on your side of the argument will blame the “traditional discrimination” on those being discriminated against, perhaps deeming it a failure of character, culture, genetics or a combination of such.”

    You kind of took me by surprise, T. Usually, there are more “familiar” blog posters to Discriminations who provide timely, on-cue illustrations of the theories I discuss here.

    I won’t single anybody out because they know who they are, and they perform an INVALUABLE service to folks on my side of the argument. You fulfilled that role quite aptly on your 1:17 AM 2/24/2006 post. Boiler-plate rhetoric, inaccurate statistics, demonization, yadda yadda…nothing unique. Actually warm and fuzzy as far as “anti-Cobra” posts go.

    Your 10:01 PM 2/24/2006, however…

    Sheer genius. People might start wondering if I hired you to post here, but I really couldn’t AFFORD somebody of your talent level. They might say I’m double-posting under another IP address. T, I admit, I’m a pretty creative guy, but when you go “white revolution through oatmeal boycotts”, I know I’m running with the big dogs, here.

    The delicious irony of this is that you’re blissfully unaware of how grateful pro-AA folks like me are for your posts. It’s a shame you said it was your last one.

    I miss you already.

    –Cobra

  20. Chetly Zarko February 25, 2006 at 3:05 am | | Reply

    Cobra, you beat me to your theory about how T was a plant. Well, my theory wasn’t really that it was your personal plant, but someone else in particular on your side of the issue.

    And if you can’t afford a person of T’s talent, then you must have no earned income at all.

    Regardless of whether T is real or not, BAMN activities do the same service for us as you claim T does for you. But we condemn the T’s of the world.

    By the way T, I have personally felt “the shaft” a number of times in my modest path to this point in life, but I just don’t think the shaft has a particular color, unless it’s color is green.

  21. mj February 25, 2006 at 6:46 am | | Reply

    His basis for claiming no progress has been made in 50 years is a study showing no progress for 12? I think we give these people too much credit. They’re just stupid.

    Maybe our economy is so strong the layer of capable thinkers is tapped out before we get to filling the “Education Policy Director” positions.

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