Discriminations

I wonder when black parents are going to decide their child's education is more important than the careers of small-time race-baiting politicians? I simply cannot understand the extent to which people sacrifice their future, and worse their children's, in exchange for nothing but the personal aggrandizement of a few slimy power-seekers.

Two comments:

1) At least Turner is more consistent in his views on race than the Holy Nine at the Supreme Court are.

2) I'm surprised no one has had the gumption to call out Dean Turner on his blatantly racist stances. Would people really be upset if someone (let's say a parent at one of these meetings) responded to Turner's accusations of racism by saying something along the lines of "You should know what a racist looks like since you see one in the mirror every morning." I think someone taking a stand against him would send his entire house of cards tumbling to the ground.

I'm going to re-post my closing somments on the previous Turner thread.

But you again dodge the question, Cobra.

What sanction has Turner faced for his statements (not just these, but others as well)? What sanction is he likely to face? Might I suggest that a relatively few nasty blog entrys/comments and some letters to the editor written by UVa undergrads is hardly an official sanction.

Were similar comments made by a white academic at UVa, would he/she escape sanctions by the University? Would the outrage be nearly so muted?

I'd suggest that, given the totality of comments and statements made by Turner over time (regardless of whether this particular incident happened as reported), that Turner has more or less been given carte blanche (or should that be carte noir?) to make inflammatory racial statements in his official capacity. Does this not constitute a double standard, given the intolerance for such comments from white indivuduals under speech codes?

And I will add -- would such conduct and speech by a white administrator at UVa, coming from a "pro-white" perspective lead to either official sanctions or his/her being driven from his position by public outcry? Is the fact that Turner remains relatively unmolested not proof that blacks (except, perhaps, conservative blacks) are held to a substandard standard of professional and personal conduct?

At some point someone should point out that the white recipients of this racial vitriol are not personally outraged in the same way that a black recipient might be. Calling me a KKK member may excite my intellectual juices, but not my emotions. Most whites who are not racist (I know, I know, but leave out latent racism for now) do not respond emotionally to race baiters like Turner. Go against him and you will get the Dr. Larry Summers treatment – and the truth be damned. You will be labeled David Duke and no liberal will stand up for the truth to defend you; or the truth either, for that matter. Their knees are just waiting to jerk in support of Turner, whatever he says. “God, it feels good to denounce those white racists who are “after” Turner, doesn’t it? Aren’t we great for doing it?
Yeeeaaaahh!”

Students at UVa have attempted many times to get some publicity on Turner. Unfortunately, other than John's wonderful blog, no one is willing to shine the spotlight on this race-baiting good-for-nothing public official.

You can look over the Cavalier Daily for the past 10 years, see his inflammatory statements, see people denounce him in the pages of the Cavalier Daily, and then a few days later it all dies down, without a word from the Administration.

I've come to the conclusion that Turner is bullet proof.

"White people are not going to educate your children."

I guess white people don't pay taxes that go to the school system, and the white teachers are deliberately holding back knowledge. (Not to mention that white people want to support and live around a permanently unemployable black underclass in an area that can't get industry to move in because there's no educated labor pool. How irretrievably stupid.) There's a letter from a white teacher in that issue, below the one John quoted from, in which she lists all the things she had done that day to enhance the education of her black students in every possible way. For her to have to listen to that crap has got to be the most infuriating thing. What has Turner done to educate black kids in Charlottesville?

So let me get this straight. It's a BAD thing the Dean M. Rick Turner "exhorts black parents to rise up to their responsibilities as 'the primary educators' of their children?"

Another article details the Turner message from Pilgrim Baptist Church further...

>>>"The local chapter of the NAACP is trying to get black families more involved in the Charlottesville schools to battle what its president calls “a history of neglect, a history of unconscionable racism that nobody or very few people have done anything about.”

M. Rick Turner, head of the area chapter, said problems have persisted in the schools because of “fear and a slave-like mentality on the part of too many black people.” To increase involvement, he said, his group will hold a rally at 7 p.m. Friday at Pilgrim Baptist Church...."

As John details in his post, the latest donnybrook occured during a Charlottesville School Board meeting where apparently, some parents voiced strong criticism of Superintendant Scottie Griffin's latest proposals. These proposals included:

>>>Among those changes were her implementation of new standardized tests, two administrative hires and for purchasing a division-wide audit that emphasized the achievement gap between white and black students. Most recently, parents were angered by Griffin’s proposals to cut physical education teachers and guidance counselors in the fall."http://loper.org/~george/archives/2005/Feb/963.html

Turner supports Griffin, but also admonishes black parents:

>>>Turner, who is dean of African-American affairs at the University of Virginia, said Wednesday that he would continue to support Griffin and will encourage more black families to take charge of their children’s education.

“They need to be out there like white parents are. They need to show the community that they care enough about education,” Turner said. “If you have parents who are actively involved in the education of their children, that would take care of some parts of the racism. That way you deal with it face to face.”

http://loper.org/~george/archives/2005/Feb/963.html

OK...I'll grant that reasonable people can disagree with the style, presentation and delivery of some of Dean Turner's messages. Lemonade needs at least a touch of sweetner to take the edge off. But I can't, for the LIFE of me, understand what problem people who post to THIS PARTICULAR BLOG would have with a message that challenges African Americans to increase parental involvement in education. I can't COUNT the number of posts that point (most times in a prosecutorial fashion) to test score gaps between black students and other groups. Here, we have Sup. Griffin trying to implement strategies that may ADDRESS that gap, and again, there seems to be a problem.

Is this a situation where the right message gets lost because of the messenger?

--Cobra

Cobra, it's not the part about black people needing to take responsibility for their kids. (I guess you were a big fan of Bill Cosby's recent expressions.) Everybody needs to take responsibility for their kids, that's a given. It's the part about "white folks are not going to educate your children". White people get a rebate of the portion of their taxes that would have gone to black schools? What are the white teachers doing? Sitting on their hands?

Laura: Isn't it truly amazing that you actually had to explain that to Cobra?

I remember when I started 3rd grade, in 1968. My elementary school desegregated that year. (In case you think that was very early for a school system in Mississippi to desegregate, you're right; it was the first in the state, and the only one to do so without a court order. I can't take any credit for that, I was just a kid.) My mother walked with me to find my classroom, and when I got to the door I discovered that my teacher was black. This was not what I had envisioned, and I balked. My mom put her hand in the middle of my back and gave me a little push, and she leaned over and whispered, "It'll be fine. You'll like her." And I did. She was a nice lady who liked little kids and was truly interested in education. Years later she and my mother both volunteered for the literacy council, and they traveled to regional conferences together. Anyway, suppose my mother had had the attitude that "black folks are not going to educate my children". Good grief.

Better put a little liniment on that knee, Cobra.

Laura writes:

>>> My mother walked with me to find my classroom, and when I got to the door I discovered that my teacher was black. This was not what I had envisioned, and I balked. My mom put her hand in the middle of my back and gave me a little push, and she leaned over and whispered, "It'll be fine. You'll like her." And I did. She was a nice lady who liked little kids and was truly interested in education. Years later she and my mother both volunteered for the literacy council, and they traveled to regional conferences together. Anyway, suppose my mother had had the attitude that "black folks are not going to educate my children". Good grief."

I think you miss the point. The story of your mother taking you to class, reassuring you when you had doubts, and taking an ACTIVE role with your teacher in attending literacy conferences together is EXACTLY the kind of parental involvement that Turner is imploring more black parents to embrace. IMHO, Turner is telling black parents that there is a PROBLEM. Test scores show that there is a problem. Graduation rates show that there is a problem. This blog constantly points to a problem. Turner, IMHO believes that "white folks" (the system in place) are not going to solve these problems, and reminds black parents that THEY are ultimately responsible for solving them.
If ANYTHING, anti-affirmative action types like Dave Huber should be THRILLED with the prospect of an NAACP leader suggesting blacks take charge of their own educational successes, and not rely solely on a government system.

Again...the message is apparently lost due to the disdain for the messenger.

--Cobra

Hm, maybe.

Let me simplify your message, Cobra:

1. Black racists are good.

2. White racists are bad.

This has been your sole message every time you post on this board.

I'm going to ask you again. Why do you employ a pseudonym that connotes attack and violence?

Cobra still dodges the questions I've asked -- Would a white professor spewing similar rhetoric agaist blacks have any future at any university in the US? If not, is there not a clear double standard in play, one that holds blacks to a substandard standard of conduct?

Hopefully he will overcome his fear and answer the questions.

Which are submitted by a white man who daily educates students in a classroom which is almost 40% black and over 40% Hispanic.

The Precinct Chair writes:

>>>Cobra still dodges the questions I've asked -- Would a white professor spewing similar rhetoric agaist blacks have any future at any university in the US? "

The answer is yes. The evidence is Professor Michael Levin of CCNY.

>>>The Center for Democracy Studies discovered that at least three times the CIR (Center for Individual Rights) received funding from an infamous white-supremacy group, the Pioneer Fund, founded in New York in 1937 by textile magnate, Wickliffe Draper, to lend support to employing eugenics to restrict the birth of Negroes, and thereby to “better the lot of mankind”. Since then, Pioneer Fund’s main objective has been to support research to establish the genetic superiority of Whites.
The CIR lawyers represented CCNY Professor Michael Levin in a dispute over Levin’s assertion that young Blacks should be required to travel in armed subway cars in New York City. An ardent proponent of the intellectual and moral inferiority of Blacks, Levin is also bankrolled by the Pioneer Fund. In his 1997 book, Why Race Matters, Levin wrote:

• [The worst Black criminals] “display viciousness almost unknown among [W]hites. The most effective step might simply be a return to…chain gang[s].”
• “The labor of many [B]lacks is not valuable to most people.”
• “Any multiracial society will find [B]lacks less law-abiding than [W]hites.”
• “Blacks are less intelligent than [W]hites and more impulsive, for largely biological reasons.”
• “No amount of training and childhood enrichment can shrink the race gap.”

http://www.facultyvoice.com/News/news2001/01-January/January95.html

Just a note for you trivia buffs, the Center for Individual Rights is the SAME group that represented Jennifer Gratz in her lawsuit against the University of Michigan.

"Ye shall know them by their fruits."
Matthew 7:16

--Cobra

Levin is not a good counter-example. To find a good counter-example to Dean Turner under The Precinct Chair's rubric, you'd need to find a white professor constantly accusing blacks of causing trouble who is not significantly criticized by his academy.

In Levin's case, he was strongly rebuked by his colleagues. Moreover, as far as I know, he has only written the one article that has the inflammatory passage - you could hardly claim that he has been consistently talking about blacks causing problems in the way that Dean Turner constantly talks about whites being the problem.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1282/is_n8_v41/ai_7562269

Cobra,

You also have repeated the often view that it is black parents responsbility to force whites to educate their children for them. I wonder if Dean Turner was at an all black church what he would be telling the parents. Would he tell them to buy more books and less clothes, or would he claim that the white racist are not doing enough for their children.

Craig writes:

>>>Levin is not a good counter-example. To find a good counter-example to Dean Turner under The Precinct Chair's rubric, you'd need to find a white professor constantly accusing blacks of causing trouble who is not significantly criticized by his academy."

The Precinct Chair's question to me was:
" Would a white professor spewing similar rhetoric agaist blacks have any future at any university in the US? If not, is there not a clear double standard in play, one that holds blacks to a substandard standard of conduct?"

Professor Michael Levin has spewed WHITE SUPREMACIST rhetoric against blacks and is CURRENTLY a member of the "Honors Faculty" at CCNY.
http://www.ccny.cuny.edu/honorscenter/faculty/levin.html
Obviously, a white professor can make anti-black statements, and have a future in a university in the US. Case Closed.

Craig also writes:

>>>In Levin's case, he was strongly rebuked by his colleagues. Moreover, as far as I know, he has only written the one article that has the inflammatory passage - you could hardly claim that he has been consistently talking about blacks causing problems in the way that Dean Turner constantly talks about whites being the problem."

Let me further enlighten you on Prof. Levin. In addition to doing rounds on the talk show circuit during the nineties, Levin also authored a 415 paged hardcover book entitled:
"Why Race Matters: Race Differences and What They Mean (Human Evolution, Behavior, and Intelligence)"
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0275957896/
He also forged an alliance with Jared Taylor, the white supremacist founder of the American Renaissance (AMREN), contributing articles, audio tapes, video tapes and live AMREN speaking engagements, including the infamous "In Defense of Western Man" conference series.
http://www.amren.com/0204issue/0204issue.html
If you STILL doubt the extent of Levin's belief in black inferiority, take a look at one of the articles he wrote at AMREN's website, entitled "The Evolution of Racial Differences in Morality"
http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/2004/10/the_evolution_o.php

That all being said, it's LUDICROUS to even compare the two individuals as far as racist rhetoric is concerned. I have said before and will again that I don't neccessarily agree with everything that Dean M. Rick Turner has said, and find that his caustic and inflammatory rhetoric is not always appropriate or constructive. But please show me quotes from Turner advocating racial superiority, eugenics or anything NEAR what Levin supports.
FURTHERMORE, the articles on Turner's school board and subsequent church speech admonish black parents just as much if not more than white teachers, administrators or citizens, so your line about "constantly talks about whites being the problem" rings hollow.

Superdestroyer writes:

>>>You also have repeated the often view that it is black parents responsbility to force whites to educate their children for them."

When did I write that? Please copy and paste where and when I typed that in.

>>>I wonder if Dean Turner was at an all black church what he would be telling the parents."

If you find out what the make up of the congregation of the Pilgrim Baptist Church he spoke at was, you would get the answer to your question.

--Cobra

Cobra, let me see if I understand you correctly. You are saying Turner’s racist pronouncements should be overlooked because his message is good. His being a racist should not influence how we consider his opinions on how black children should be educated. I believe that I have not in any way misrepresented your comments on this point.
You go on to refer me to some negative comments on the Center for Individual Rights. Because they are “white” racists, you imply that the fact of their white racism should cause us to not even consider their opinions on how black children should be educated. No, wait, it is worse than that. We are directed to deplore any plaintiffs who accept funding from them as well as show no respect for any judgment of any court in those plaintiff’s favor because they accepted this funding.
Black racists’ feet don’t stink. White racist’s do. That is why I suggest that when you write a comment it goes directly from your ears to your typing and bypasses your brain altogether. Why would a thinking person not infected with this nonsense that black racists can do no wrong, make a free choice to adopt it? You should (IMHO) be saying “Turner is a racist, you are correct, but even so, his message is a good one.” Since you cannot bring yourself to admit that he is, I cannot respect any comments you may have about the correctness of his opinions. The insult to my intelligence of your refusal to label him the racist he is, is too great to overcome.

Notherbob writes:

>>>Cobra, let me see if I understand you correctly. You are saying Turner’s racist pronouncements should be overlooked because his message is good. His being a racist should not influence how we consider his opinions on how black children should be educated."

What is your definition of "racism?"

>>>Main Entry: rac·ism
Pronunciation: 'rA-"si-z&m also -"shi-
Function: noun
Date: 1936
1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities AND that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race

- rac·ist /-sist also -shist/ noun or adjective

Pronunciation Key

© 2001 by Merriam-Webster, Incorporated
Merriam-Webster Privacy Policy"

Given the statements cited by both Turner and Levin, which of the two more aptly fit the definition? If you are intellectually HONEST, and not solely out to "disagree with Cobra no matter what the facts are", you know exactly WHICH of the two touts racial supremacy and neo-eugenics. This is why I reject your premise outright.
I realize that outspoken, non-appeasing African Americans are often targets of scorn and derision in mainstream America. Incendiary rhetoric, and provocative phrases in speeches are one thing, and AS I SAID MANY TIMES, often aren't wise tactics in winning a consensus to your point of view. Lord knows I can't plead "not guilty" to that myself, especially on this blog.
HOWEVER, touting racial supremacy and claiming that one race is intellectually inferior to another is the DICTIONARY DEFINTION OF RACISM. Cut and dry, locked down, docked ship, Case closed.

--Cobra

Cobra, rhetorically you are (for one of very few times) on point. And, your 1936 definition of racism clearly backs you up. Well done! Unfortunately for the point you wish to make, it is no longer 1936.
rac·ism (rā'sĭz'əm) n.
1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race. …GurNet (2005)
Look back over your comments on this blog to count the ways you have seen white racism active in our society today and so labeled it. You were not using the 1936 definition then
The white supremacy era of race relations in America is over. We now have a limited movement toward black supremacy in the guise of 20% quotas on college admissions inappropriately disguised as searches for an ill-defined diversity. No well-informed sane person believes that diversity is what this diversity is about. The Supreme Court doesn’t even believe it. You don’t believe it. You are still stuck in 1960 observing the 11th Commandment to say no ill about black racists and in so doing you appear ridiculous anywhere but at an Al Sharpton political rally.

Notherbob2 writes:

>>>The white supremacy era of race relations in America is over."

Maybe you should e-mail Professor Levin and clue him in. I have a long, long list of organizations and groups who agree with Levin. You need to dial them up too. But oh...I'm sorry...they can't possibly exist, because you believe the "white supremacy era is over."
You don't want to go down that road, Notherbob.

--Cobra

No Cobra, YOU are the one who does not want to go down that road. One day you will be taking me down to skid row and telling me that if the wrinkled, drunken wino could be understood, he would be the last white racist. I am well aware that Nazis ruled Germany in my lifetime and any number of them can still be found if one is motivated to do so. Nevertheless, Natzisim is of intense interest only to historians. Young blacks need leaders to help them give up past hurts and prejudices and to help them make it in the new, free society. They don’t need has-beens raising false, time-worn prejudices to help them try to sign on to the victimization-oriented dole of government programs. Many blacks understand this. Why don’t you give up your tired, victim-oriented cant and get in touch with the future?

Notherbob writes:

>>>Young blacks need leaders to help them give up past hurts and prejudices and to help them make it in the new, free society. They don’t need has-beens raising false, time-worn prejudices to help them try to sign on to the victimization-oriented dole of government programs. Many blacks understand this. "

Now, I don't doubt that you have genuine concern for young blacks "making it." My problem with your statement is that you want to choose their leaders for them. First of all, I don't believe that my leaders (I guess I could still be considered a "young black" by some) have to neccessarily be black. I get inspiration from a variety of different people. Second, with the success that Dean Turner has had with African American retention and graduation rates at UVA, there is obviously a formula that he is employing that works. Turner is producing RESULTS, not just rhetoric.
Apparently, like I said before, Turner's style is not warm and fuzzy. He is definitely not going out of his way to make white conservatives feel comfortable.
I agree with reporter Bryan McKenzie's recent comments on Turner.

>>>Now I’m a bachelor of journalism and not a doctor of education, but I believe Dr. Turner is right. The way to combat racism in the system is to show up and fight for the programs that benefit African-Americans: “[Black parents] need to be out there like white parents are. They need to show the community that they care enough about education.”

As civil rights leaders of old learned, if you want the system to change you have to work to change the system."

Feb 19, 2005
http://www.dailyprogress.com

--Cobra

I myself am not a fan of the "black leader" concept. I don't think we white people have "leaders". It kind of implies that black people are natural followers.

Cobra, there's a middle ground between going out of one's way to make a group comfortable, and ticking them off with verbal drive-bys at every opportunity. You (or anyone) can use any kind of rhetoric you want, but if you want to win friends and influence people that's something you have to take into account. I think sometimes people don't realize that others outside their immediate audience get to hear what they say. Right after our black mayor was first elected, with a fair number of white votes, there was a municipal election in which a black "dream team" was put together to try to sweep a bunch of open spots. Because a black radio station was on all the time at work, I heard that mayor's ads in which he said, "Our people have made great strides, but we don't need to lose our momentum now" or some such. Hint: "our people" did not mean "Memphians at large". The "dream team" bombed and everybody wondered why.

Hmmmmmm...

Peer-reviewed articles and scholarly books by Levin are the equivalent of the personal invective heaped upon anyone who disagrees with Turner? I don't know that I agree with that.

But I will note, for the record, that your point essentially concedes that Turner is a racist.

The Precinct Chair writes:

>>>Peer-reviewed articles and scholarly books by Levin are the equivalent of the personal invective heaped upon anyone who disagrees with Turner? I don't know that I agree with that."

I'll take that to mean that you're open to debate on the subject. It's a start.

>>>But I will note, for the record, that your point essentially concedes that Turner is a racist."

Not at all. I made no concessions. I provided a definition and two separate equations. Levin's equation adds up to the definition. Turner's does not.

Laura writes:

>>>Cobra, there's a middle ground between going out of one's way to make a group comfortable, and ticking them off with verbal drive-bys at every opportunity. You (or anyone) can use any kind of rhetoric you want, but if you want to win friends and influence people that's something you have to take into account."

I agree.

--Cobra

You indicate that Levin and Turner have engaged in similar types of rhetoric. Whould you care to explain how the two sets of comments differ so as to make Levin a racist and Turner a non racist -- other than the skin tone of the individual making them.

The Precinct Chair writes:

>>>You indicate that Levin and Turner have engaged in similar types of rhetoric. Whould you care to explain how the two sets of comments differ so as to make Levin a racist and Turner a non racist -- other than the skin tone of the individual making them."

Your original question to me:

>>>The Precinct Chair's question to me was:
" Would a white professor spewing similar rhetoric agaist blacks have any future at any university in the US? If not, is there not a clear double standard in play, one that holds blacks to a substandard standard of conduct?"

Precinct, YOU were the one who used the term "similiar." I went as far as stating that Professor Levin was far beyond Turner in his black inferiority viewpoints. I clearly put VERBATUM examples of his on the record ideology for you to read--Not hearsay, second person accounts or rumors. Those examples are a slam dunk dictionary definition of racism. To this point, nothing Turner has said on the record, posted by bloggers here has risen to the same dictionary definition level.

I will say this again...for the umpteenth time. I don't neccessarily agree with everything Dean Turner says, or think his often frank and unexpurgated style is always appropriate. HOWEVER...
There is a world of difference between "calling people racist", and "fitting the dictionary definition of racist."

---Cobra
--Cobra

OK Cobra, and all of you. first off thank you for this forum. I am glad that somebody is discussing this besides us beleaguered parents in Charlotesville. I have 3 kids in this school system, and I have been watching this thing develop for the past few months as a parent and as a white liberal/whatever. This is what is happening. Cobra, you miss the point time and again. It is a given that ALL parents/caregivers MUST take the lead in supervising their child's education. From their earliest days children must be mentally stimulated by those closest to them. This is not only common sense, but sound education theory going back to Lev Vygotsky, Ainsworth and Salter and other proponents of close child/caregiver attachment bonds as a precursor to formal education. The need for parents to perform this task is not what Turner has been saying here in Charlottesville. He has been saying that White teachers will not teach black students, that White parents are Klan members, racists, that the criticism of the new school superintendent is racially driven. He has been given more time to speak at meetings to present his views by the school board chair than other speakers have been given to counter them. There is no need to read between the lines here, to interpret his comments in a post slavery context. The man wasn't wounded by his years of subservience to a white master. He is a racist. Period. And his power as a tenured professor at UVA, as a spokesperson for African Americans local or otherwise, carries the weight of the University simply because his is the ONLY voice coming from the University. And in THIS town the University is Big Time. Remember the Harvard president 3 weeks ago? Dragged out on the carpet for his stupid remarks. News on every network. UVA says nothing about one of its highly regarded members calling the white citizens of Charlottesville racist. There ARE NO lines to read between, Cobra, just the facts.

And besides, by putting this simmering education and budget dispute into a racism context, Turner and his supporters, including people bussed in to meetings, preclude a factual analysis of Griffin's (Scottie Griffin. The new superintendent. Remember her?) budget proposals. THAT is racist. Not giving the woman's intellectual and creative work a chance to sink or swim on their own merit.

Listen. I could go on and on. It is bad here. Forget this racist crap and analyze what it is the children need, what the principals and teachers need, how we can most quickly and sensibly get it to them. --Brian