On numerous occasions here I have discussed M. Rick Turner, the University of Virginia’s Dean of all Things Black (and Only Black — as Cavalier Daily columnist Eric Wang pointed out here, he once kicked a Hispanic student out of a meeting dubbed “A Conversation with Black Men.” Also discussed here. Turner apologized — not for kicking the student out, but for not making the exclusionary policy clearer.) I can’t cite of these references here (just search the site for “Turner), but here he was using a university list server to urge all black students to vote for a black candidate for a student government office. Here (I cite another Eric Wang column), at the annual “Fall Fling,” a university recruiting effort limited to blacks, Turner ominously warned parents that “You cannot leave your children at a predominantly white college [without programs like the Office of African American Affairs], otherwise you’ll see results you don’t want to see.” Here, responding to a study showing white males are more likely to be binge drinkers, the good dean observed that “African-American students do not have to drink in order to have a good time.” Presumably whites do.
That’s enough cites; you get the idea. And true to form DOATB (Dean of All Things Black) Turner is still at it. Last week, during his second “State of African American Affairs” speech at the UVa Rotunda, Turner attributed all criticism of Charlottesville school superintendent Scottie Griffin to “racism and sexism.”
letter from the Charlottesville jail:
M. Rick Turner is the devil.
A perfect example of one of the many problems with AA. Racial discrimination is OK in higher education — and everywhere else — because the govt. has a ‘compelling interest’ in racial diversity. But what are some of the results of this uplifting diversity? Separate housing, separate fraternities, separate studies programs, separate commencement, separate ….
Now, far be it from me to remind people of what was written in the past, but on a recent blog thread right here in Discriminations,(Jan 22nd’s, “Are Second Tier Schools All White?”) I asked a question. To paraphrase, I asked my fellow posters if they had any problem with de-facto segregation, as opposed to de jure (law, government enforced). There were a wide range of repsonses, from “no problem at all” to “a definite problem.”
Here, we have an individual named M.Rick Turner, who has apparently made statements that either endorse de-facto segregation, or at the very least, represent a retaliatory indictment of Charlottesvile in regards to segregation.
I will do more reading on Turner before I cast judgement on him, but I did find some interesting statistics on segregation in Charlottesville, VA that don’t paint a pretty “group hug by the campfire” picture.
http://www.censusscope.org/us/s51/p14968/chart_exposure.html
My question is similiar to the one I posted in the other thread. How can Turner condemned for segregatory behavior, but not the citizens of Charlottesville?
–Cobra
Cobra,
Mr Turner is a state employee. If he was encouraging whites to stay away from blacks, you would attack him immeidately. Yet, since he is black and is wanting blacks to be separate, you now seem to be looking for a way to excuse Mr. Turner racist behavior.
How can a government employee who is an employee of an university be a participant in “voluntary” segregation?
Cobra, I read your statistics. Giving you credit for normal intelligence, you know that housing is a function of income. If the income statistics were to correlate exactly with the racial housing statistics in Charlottesville, we would have zero evidence of a racial basis for these distributions. Now, I know that for those of you who are beating the discrimination drum such income statistics would only shift the discussion to a claim that the income distribution has a racial implication. Not my point. Merely showing housing distribution figures is not conclusive evidence of racial discrimination. In other words, maybe they are driving or taking the bus over and having group hugs in Charlottesville, absent economic class discrimination. Any taint on de facto racial segregation comes from people not being able to live in an area they want to and can afford due to race-based reasons. Otherwise, it is freedom of association, protected by the U. S. Constitution.
Do blacks and whites who may live predominantly in different neighborhoods thereby engage in “segregatory behavior”?
Notherbob writes:
>>>Any taint on de facto racial segregation comes from people not being able to live in an area they want to and can afford due to race-based reasons. Otherwise, it is freedom of association, protected by the U. S. Constitution.”
The only problem with that statement Notherbob, is that in your EARLIER post, you wrote:
>>>Yes, segregation is a bad, bad thing and should not be tolerated.”
You did not use a modifier before segregation. I know it sounds like semantics, but you know what the difference is without it. Your later statement, that “de facto segregation” is only bad if people are prevented from living where they want to live, but that freedom of association is fine.
You AAA-types seem to want it BOTH WAYS.
John writes:
>>>Do blacks and whites who may live predominantly in different neighborhoods thereby engage in “segregatory behavior”?”
Again, I’ll answer this question as Laura did in her post in the previous thread.
>>>
Nels, I think that people frequently do what they do for a mixture of motives, especially for decisions like which school to put their kids in. Suppose a parent picked a school for her kid based on these criteria:
It’s close to my house.
It’s a newer school than the others, hence nicer and probably safer.
There’s a music program she’ll like.
The school is majority white, like us.
I know parents of three kids at that school and they all say it’s great.
Now, is the decision to send the kid there an immoral decision? Partially immoral? Nobody else’s dadgum business?”
Now, John, do you find any fault with the decision making that Laura described? How similiar is that decision making with that of Mr. Turner? Does PERSONAL segregation bother you as much in this case, as it apparently does when discussing Turner, since Mr. Turner, to my reading of your post, does not call for legal recourse to re-institute segregation?
Again, it seems to me that AAA-types are saying, “Do as I say, not as I do.”
–Cobra
cobra – Laura’s list makes perfect sense to me. DOATB Turner, however, is in a different boat. True, he’s not legislating a return to segregation. But he is in a position of authority, and as I read his comments he IS telling black students that they SHOULD remain segregated.
Cobra, don
My question is similiar to the one I posted in the other thread. How can Turner condemned for segregatory behavior, but not the citizens of Charlottesville?
–Cobra
—
But you’ve not condemned Mr. Turner’s behavior, and you will not condemn the most blatant racism by any black.
I don’t know what the issue with Charlotte is, but it seems to be some more stastically invented bias, for which your solution is blatant over the top racism (your solution for everything I might add).
Rich
Cobra, I read your comments on this post and on the post at the top of the blog, and I realized that everybody is misdiagnosing you.
Here’s the problem. You want the world to be ideal. You want absolute consistency.
I can remember, vaguely, a long time ago, when I also wanted the world to behave in this manner. You will drive yourself to madness trying to hold onto this world view. This is not an ideal world, nor was it intended to be. God gave men free will. Seldom are we allowed to make ideal choices. Most of the time, we have to make do with the best choice out of those that are available.
Wanting reliable consistency in this racial debate will also drive you to madness. As I’ve said repeatedly, you seem to regard segregation as an absolute evil, and you see government as having an obligation to end segregation. I see segregation as something that the vast majority of people choose, out of a desire to be comfortable and with their own kind, as well as out of fear.
Hey Cobra! Somebody got tired of using the white man
Notherbob writes:
>>>In his private life Mr. Turner is free to associate with and advocate associating with anyone he chooses for whatever reasons he chooses. In his role as part of a university that accepts federal funding, he is not. This is pretty basic stuff.”
What are the exact standards of association that a university employee should follow? And exactly how is Turner violating those standards?
>>>If Bob Jones University says:
cobra – Cool your jets. I would have thought that by now you’ve read enough here to know that I abhor racial exclusion. That doesn’t mean that I think people don’t have a right to segregate themselves if THEY choose to. If black college students choose to eat and live together, segregating themselves from non-blacks, I think that is their (shortsighted and self-destructive) prerogative. I do not think universities should — or for that matter, should be allowed to — provide housing/dining halls/whatever that is limited to blacks. And I think that it is obnoxious, though not illegal, for a university dean to recommend segregation (and practice it by holding meetings from which some students are excluded on the basis of race. That, in fact, might well be illegal).
By the way, FYI, what got Bob Jones’s tax exemption revoked was not its religious views about interracial marriage. Like it or not, Bob Jones is a religious institution, and part of its theology forbids interracial marriage. But that was irrelevant to the IRS. What was relevant, thought the IRS, was its policy against interracial dating and dancing. If Bob Jones had ever admitted enough black students to sustain black fraternities, believe me it, like DOATB Turner, would have enthusiastically supported racially separate fraternity organizations.
John writes:
>>>If black college students choose to eat and live together, segregating themselves from non-blacks, I think that is their (shortsighted and self-destructive) prerogative.”
First of all, like I said, I’m not here to pounce on you. I’m not going to try to indict you of anything. As I’ve said in the past, I believe that you, and several other posters are adept at getting across your anti-preference message on principle, without any connotation of racism. That’s why this particular area really piques my interest. You see, I’m not accusing you of anything other than putting out a mixed message on this particular theme.
Take the quote above. Now juxtapose it next to Laura’s hypothetical parental decision making process:
“The school is majority white, like us.”, to which your response was “perfectly fine.”
One instance of self-segregation is “short-sighted and self-destructive”, while another is “perfectly fine.”
I suppose as Stephen said,
“Wanting reliable consistency in this racial debate will also drive you to madness.”
I’m not mad. And I think you’re a fair-minded individual. I just want you to dig a little deeper into the process, and tell me how the two examples you posted makes sense.
–Cobra
cobra – No, No, No. I think it’s shortsighted and self-destructive for anyone, black or white, to segregate himself. I don’t think anyone should choose anything, such as what school to attend, on the basis of race (just as I don’t think schools should choose any of their students on the basis of race). All I meant by “perfectly fine” re Laura’s list (on which the school choice was just one item) is that people have right to do that, just as black students have a right to segregate themselves on college campuses if they so choose. cobra, the only people here who exhibit double standards are those who claim to believe in equality but then try to justify treating people differently because of their race.
cobra,
You still have not explained how a state employee can claim while on the job that the University should be able to discriminate? Free Speech on your own time is one thing, free speech while on your employers time in quite another. Mr. Turner as a state employee and as an employee of an university that accepts public funds can and should be sued and/or disciplined as civil rights violation. Was George Wallace just using his free speech rights while standing in the door of the University of Alabama?
superdestroyer writes:
>>>Was George Wallace just using his free speech rights while standing in the door of the University of Alabama?”
Umm…Super,this is George Wallace:
>>>GEORGE WALLACE: In the name of the greatest people that have ever trod this earth, I draw the line in the dust and toss the gauntlet before the feet of tyranny and I say segregation now, segregation tomorrow and segregation forever.”
>>>GEORGE WALLACE: How in the name of common sense can you be too strong about segregation? You
“When this country can begin to redistribute wealth.” If he’s looking for a sociali$t* wonderland, may it never happen.
“What we have done historically is lock African-American people out from housing, from schools, from jobs, from everything in life.”
Cobra, you don’t have a home? Didn’t go to school? You’re unemployed? You don’t have anything in life? I guess the black people I live next door to, went to school with, and work alongside are somehow not African-Americans.
“I’m also eagerly awaiting the thread condemning the Greek societies of the South as ‘short sighted and self-destructive.'” I am only held back from contempt for people who join those societies by my reluctance to feel contempt for my fellow human beings because it isn’t a Christian way to be, and by my desire not to pass judgement on actions that I am utterly bewildered as to any possible motivations for. If you want to condemn the Greek societies, knock yourself out. But I’ve had black coworkers who doodle the names of their sororities on scratch paper along with “Oop-Oop” and other arcane words and symbols, so I’m not sure who all you’ll be condemning.
*John, your comment filter is a pain in the butt. Just thought I’d mention. : )
Laura,
Oh, wow, it bounced that? I’ve had some comments refused as well, and alerted John to it. It didn’t occur to me to determine which specific words were being blocked by experimenting as you did, though. Interesting.
Hmm . . . let’s try it now. Will it take “promiscuous sex”?
Huh, it did. And I was fairly certain that that was the troublesome phrase last time. Interesting. Maybe John fixed that.
I think it’s trying to screen out spam for pharmaceuticals. It’s the part after “so” that was objected to.
Laura writes:
>>>Cobra, you don’t have a home? Didn’t go to school? You’re unemployed? You don’t have anything in life? I guess the black people I live next door to, went to school with, and work alongside are somehow not African-Americans.”
Any plane I’m flying on doesn’t have to nose dive before I start thinking about airline safety. Unlike some of the more obtuse posters on this blog, I didn’t think that you needed to be reminded of the societal disparities and gaps between blacks and whites in America on a whole plethora of issues. And also, unlike Cain, I AM my brother’s (and sisters’) keeper.
>>>If you want to condemn the Greek societies, knock yourself out. But I’ve had black coworkers who doodle the names of their sororities on scratch paper along with “Oop-Oop” and other arcane words and symbols, so I’m not sure who all you’ll be condemning.”
Actually, I was never a big fan of fraternities and sororities to start with. I was defiantly independent in college. I still am today. My issue is, ONCE AGAIN, the selective outrage of conservatives, who would malign M. Rick Turner’s suggestion, but dummy up about the enormously racist southern Greek Society system.
-Cobra
I guess anybody can be locked out from anything at any time. I hear a lot about how white people are locked out of doing business with the City of Memphis, or getting jobs with it or with the schools. This is feasible, and there have been successful lawsuits to that effect, but I don’t assume that it’s a major problem for me or most other white people. Now you’re making me feel guilty that I’m not protesting this more. I have a home and a job, but if I’m my brothers’ and sisters’ keepers then this is a problem I ought to address.
cobra – Thanks for pointing out that DOATB Turner believes we will need to continue giving preferences to blacks until all property is confiscated and redistributed.
Re your comment, I’m also eagerly awaiting the thread condemning the Greek societies of the South as “short sighted and self-destructive,” you really had nothing to wait for. (Or perhaps you just missed the boat.) I’ve been regularly condemning all efforts to separate by race, and that certainly includes fraternities that exclude blacks, if there any left. I also think it rather quaint that you regard all those who believe people should be treated, and should treat others, without regard to race, ethnicity, etc. as white male apologists. I’m glad you continue to make this argument here, and my only reservation about it is that more people don’t see it. The best arguments for MCRI — or at least the argument that would persuade the most people to support it — are the arguments against it like the ones you make here.
Laura,
But of course! Tee-hee! It’s that pesky product that rhymes with the name of Mr. B. Al Iss. I ought to have thought of that. John, that explains your problem too.
cOBRRA.
I personally don’t like the idea of shutting up people who make their living out of the public till. As long as Mr. Turner does not use public stationery to broadcast his opinions and rely only on inverviews by other people ( like the student newspaper, a tax financed paper dependent on the public till ) he can say anything that he wants. However, if he starts using office stationary at the UVA student affairs office to broadcast his views that is another matter. Personally, I do not think most black UVA students will heed the garbage thAT IS BEING PEDDLED BY this guy Turner. There is nothing wrong with associating with people of any color or anyone of my choice if I think I can get a benefit from it. The consequences of that action are my responsibility. So what ‘s wrong if the white citizenry of Charlottesville is racist? Why should you worry that much if the white Infraternity Council does not want a Homecoming Black Queen? Does your success in life or in college have to do with the white citizens in Charlottesville or white fraternities at Ole’ Miss? i already told you in the case of San Francisco where the white citizens ( a great deal of whom ) chose to practice defacto segregation ( if it can be called that way ) by abandoning public schools in favor of private schools. Did it help them? No, it did not help them that much to get inside Berkeley from what I had seen. There was a higher number of Asians who got inside berkeley, and Asians clung mostly to the public high schools. Will the white infraternity council affect your grade in calculus?
Leo Cruz,
Do you honestly believe that those who practice exclusionary association in their personal lives don’t do so professionally as well? I have centuries worth of American history supporting that very fact. You freely admit the existance of glass ceilings for Asian Americans in the white dominated corporate world. (That’s right, Michelle…I mentioned the phrase Asian American).
Leo writes:
>>>Does your success in life or in college have to do with the white citizens in Charlottesville or white fraternities at Ole’ Miss?”
I suppose the same question can be posed to you. Does YOUR success in life or in college have to do with the African Americans who may receive preferences?
Leo writes:
>>>There is nothing wrong with associating with people of any color or anyone of my choice if I think I can get a benefit from it.”
Hey, you’re not the first person to say such a thing, and instead of pouncing on you, and flooding the screen with similiar quotes from David Duke, Matthew Hale, Khalid Muhammed and any number of others, I’ll let you dwell on the ramifications of that statement. Soak it in, Leo.
John writes:
>>>Thanks for pointing out that DOATB Turner believes we will need to continue giving preferences to blacks until all property is confiscated and redistributed.”
Considering that African Americans were “confiscated and redistributed AS property” for centuries here in America, don’t you find irony in that comment? Oh, and during that time, our form of government was allegedly a “democracy”, with a “capitalist” economic system.
As far as your “shock” goes in recognizing that there are all white fraternities and sororities, John…where have you been for all these years? Where do you get your information from if you DON’T know that’s what the Greek system is all about, especially in the South?
(sigh) Read here:
http://www.gibbsmagazine.com/New%20Trends%20in%20Racism.htm
And here: “The Machine?”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/bush/story/0,7369,549916,00.html
And here:
http://www.al.com/forums/tide/index.ssf?artid=822455
And here:(albeit with a wee bit of hope)
http://www.thedailyeasternnews.com/news/2003/04/11/Opinions/Greek.Life.In.Dire.Need.Of.Diversity-415367.shtml
And here:
http://www.etext.org/Politics/AlternativeOrange/2/v2n6_bhre.html
And here:
http://www.tolerance.org/news/article_tol.jsp?id=866
And here:”California Love?”
http://www.dailytrojan.com/news/2004/09/01/News/Greeks.Struggle.With.Diversity-708516.shtml
I suppose this kind of reality wouldn’t be apparent if somebody wasn’t paying attention to it. Fortunately, I’ve got my antenna up for these sorts of things, and I’m always happy to fill folks in on the details.
–Cobra
Cobra … you do realize that the Greek system includes black sororities and fraternities, even in the South, don’t you?
Laura,
Heck, it was there in the original post:
Today’s Cavalier Daily reports that Turner has taken to condemning the recent decision by U.Va.’s chapter of Alpha Phi Alpha, an African-American fraternity, to leave the “Black Fraternity Council” and join the non-racial “Inter-Fraternity Council.”
cobra – Now I’m confused. Just a minute ago you were defending the idea of racially separate fraternities. Now you seem to be condemning them. I guess that’s what happens when your positions aren’t guided by a consistent principle (except, of course, the black equivalent of the old “what’s good for the Jews” standard (which I also abhor, to head off your confusion at the pass).
Dealing with voluntary organizations is indeed a problem, at least for some of us. Those who believe in “diversity” as their highest good, and hence do not believe in an individual right to be free from discrimination, should have no trouble here at all. Simply don’t allow all or even predominantly white, OR BLACK, fraternities and sororities. Just draft and assign students based on their race until the proper balance is achieved. Just like school boards all over the country do already.
John writes:
>>>Now I’m confused. Just a minute ago you were defending the idea of racially separate fraternities. Now you seem to be condemning them.”
Not at all. I was simply pointing out their existance to you. You did make this statement:
>>>I’ve been regularly condemning all efforts to separate by race, and that certainly includes fraternities that exclude blacks, if there any left.”
“If there are any left” implies that you aren’t sure they still exist, like the snail darter or the great auk.
I just wanted to make sure you had all the facts, so you can begin your condemnation of separating by race in earnest. You should begin with the citizens of Charlottesville.
Laura writes:
>>>Cobra … you do realize that the Greek system includes black sororities and fraternities, even in the South, don’t you?”
Sure do. And what’s the status of those organizations? Read some of the links I posted, and see for yourself.
–Cobra
Cobra says,
” |Do you honestly believe that those who practice exclusionary association in their personal lives don’t do so professionally as well? I have centuries worth of American history supporting that very fact. You freely admit the existance of glass ceilings for Asian Americans in the white dominated corporate world. (That’s right, Michelle…I mentioned the phrase Asian American). ”
>>>>> Do you think I don’t know that buddy?,
So what if white Charlottesville in the suburbs don’t want to asssociate with me? So long as it does not affect my opportunities or success? I could not care less
Leo writes:
>>>Does your success in life or in college have to do with the white citizens in Charlottesville or white fraternities at Ole’ Miss?”
I suppose the same question can be posed to you. Does YOUR success in life or in college have to do with the African Americans who may receive preferences?
Leo responds ” Yes Cobra, my success in life is impaired and not only that but also my human rights when either whites or African – Americans get preferences of all sorts ”
Leo writes:
>>>There is nothing wrong with associating with people of any color or anyone of my choice if I think I can get a benefit from it.”
Hey, you’re not the first person to say such a thing, and instead of pouncing on you, and flooding the screen with similiar quotes from David Duke, Matthew Hale, Khalid Muhammed and any number of others, I’ll let you dwell on the ramifications of that statement. Soak it in,
Leo responds ” Hey , Cobra you forgot to write down the part where I said that ” I will be responsible for the consequences of my association “. Whether matthew hale of the Midwest or Khalid Mohammed of the Nation of Islam said what I said or not does not matter, obiviously in practice they did not want to associate with certain groups of people ”