In an OpEd in today’s Washington Post Jeb Bush reports, with evidence, that race neutrality works.
In 2003 more than 37 percent of Florida university students who were in college for the first time were from minority groups. Minority enrollment on Florida college campuses has risen to 34 percent.
… more minority students are taking the preliminary SAT — nearly four times as many African Americans last year as in 1999. In addition, Florida leads the nation in the number of minority students taking Advanced Placement exams.
“In Florida,” he writes,
we don’t push unprepared children forward. Nor do we separate them by racial classification. We maintain that the best way to ensure minority participation in higher education is to provide the same opportunities and support to all students and to hold all students to the same standards.
Amen.
“We maintain that the best way to ensure minority participation in higher education is to provide the same opportunities and support to all students and to hold all students to the same standards. ”
Don’t they have a scheme of guaranteed entry to a certain percentage of each HS’s graduating class? I suppose thats as race neutral as High schools.
What colorblind policies? How racist!
How can you possibly even think of believing the brother of the evil Bushitler?
Let’s examine Florida for a second. As I posted in an earlier thread this month, there isn’t as rosy a picture as John wants to paint.
>>>Jeb Bush Ducks the Truth About Black Enrollments in Florida’s Public Universities
Governor Jeb Bush paints a bright picture of progress in racial diversity in the University of Florida system. This is an achievement, he boasts, which has occurred without the use of racial preferences in admissions. But the increase in black enrollments has its origins in increased racial segregation within the university system. The increase is largely the result of more black students at the predominantly black and largely segregated Florida A&M University.
Seriously undercutting Bush’s announcement is the fact that the percentage of black freshmen is down at five of the nine predominantly white campuses. Also, black enrollments at the flagship University of Florida campus in Gainesville are still more than 18 percent lower than before Governor Bush’s executive order banning race-sensitive admissions at all public universities…”
Continued here:
>>>”… The main reason for the increase in the number of black freshmen systemwide this year is an increase in black enrollments at the almost entirely black and largely segregated Florida A&M University. This growth in enrollments at Florida A&M accounts for more than 70 percent of the increase in black freshman enrollments systemwide. As a result, the important fact is that the percentage of black freshmen at the nine predominantly white campuses of the University of Florida system actually declined from a year ago. Here is an even more telling statistic: Over 40 percent of all black freshmen in the 10-campus higher education system in Florida have been segregated at the almost entirely black Florida A&M University.”
http://www.jbhe.com/news_views/41_black_enrollment_uflorida.html
In other words, Jeb Bush has ROLLED BACK THE CLOCK so that it’s nearly a separate but not neccessarily equal higher education system.
Actus, to answer your question, yes…Jeb’s “One Florida” program is described here:
>>>Readers will recall that three years ago in 2000 Governor Bush’s executive order establishing the One Florida plan banned the use of race-sensitive admissions at all of the state’s public universities. Instead the governor set a plan in which the top 20 percent of the graduating class at every high school in the state
My mother is 80 years old, and she sees all politics through the prism of the Great Depression. She’s adamant that nothing has changed since then. In her viewpoint, those nasty Republicans are still refusing to fund the soup line.
Cobra has this same geriatric mentality. God, is this man frozen in time. “Jeb Crow!” Hilarious.
Cobra, you’re going to find yourself increasingly laughed at for this nonsense. You’ve been heavily trained in the process of invoking white guilt. It doesn’t work on me. I think you will find it doesn’t work on an increasing number of whites. As I’ve tried to tell you many times, this scam mentality you’ve been indoctrinated in hurts you more than anybody else. You actually waste your time on this incessant attempt to imagine that Jim Crow and the KKK are back in power. This is a mental disorder.
I have many black friends and co-workers. I even attend, infrequently, a largely black Baptist church. I work frequently with black musicians. And, I don’t give a damn about the problems of black folks as a group. Black folks are capable of taking care of themselves. Well, unless they fall into the mental illness that has taken you.
Your attempts to invoke white guilt just wash off my back. I see you clearly as a scam artist. Just a guy trying to get over and get his hands on everything he can get his hands on. I don’t see you as a spokesman for anybody, black or white. What you are a spokesman for is dementia. I know many white con artists, too.
And, the lost in space, it’s still the 60s mentality is everywhere. On the white side, it tends to be manifested by an infatuation with hippie fashion and a belief that a demonstration is the cure for everything. On the black side, it is manifested by this “we’ve got to keep the civil rights movement going forever” mentality.
Every think about living in the present? Take a look at your calendar. It’s 2005.
Cobra, thanks for clarifying. I can see how this system might increase total black enrollment, but might not quite have the same effect if not all universities are equal.
Also, it seems kind of disengenuous to call this system ‘race neutral’.
In general i do prefer these systems of giving automatic admissions to certain HS students much more than race based preferences.
And actus is the other side of the coin… the endlessly apologizing, guilty white liberal (GWL). (Of course, we must remember that the GWL has somebody else in mind for the punishment for the great sin of “institutional racism”… namely everybody but him. The GWL assumes that he has atoned for his sins thought the confession of his class guilt. In actus’ mind his confession entitles him to teach in a university. Those terrible “conservatives”, a term which in fact means anybody who doesn’t strike the pose of the GWL, should be punished by being driven out of their academic jobs. And people of actus’ ilk like to call others “fascists”!)
This role is also laughably archaic. It’s only purpose in the here and now is halo preening. That it accomplishes nothing, and in fact is probably a negative for black folks, is of no concern to the GWL.
The GWL role is now a religious role. Although the acolytes of this religion like to believe that they are engaging in reasoned debate, they are in fact just trotting out the relics, making bows toward the icons and muttering the same stale prayers they’ve uttered for 50 years. The sole purpose of the GWL role, played so aptly by actus, is the demonstration of piety. Yes, we know that you have religion, actus! We know that your heart aches on a daily basis for black folks! What a hero you are! Sacrificing so for the those poor black folks! I am in awe. Yes, you should get the teaching job just because you are so holy! Yes, people like me who won’t don their hair shirt should not be allowed to teach!
Have you thought of taking a look at the calendar? Well, the scam is working for you, isn’t it? I’ve got to say that you have at least that over Cobra. And, this is also instructional. The GWL role is part of an academic resume for actus. He qualifies for a job as a result. The black guy, Cobra, gets nothing out of his act. This is pretty interesting.
Stephen,
I wish you and your family a happy and healthy New Year!
–Cobra
And the same to you, Cobra.
“And people of actus’ ilk like to call others “fascists”!)”
At least we’re not guilty of making wild presumptions about others! Especially over their race on the internets.
actus writes,
At least we’re not guilty of making wild presumptions about others! Especially over their race on the internets.
You know, Stephen, s/he has a point there.
Cobra,
Are you claiming that historically black universities are inferior to majority white universities. (The dirty little secret is that they are) During the Gratz lawsuit, several of the Amicus briefs claims that whites needed a criticial mass of minority students (read black) in order receive a full education. Yet, those same amicus briefs seemed to ignore all need for diversity of the black student bodies at the HBU.
Now, that Florida is sending more black students to HBU, the HBU’s are not good enough. I wonder if Florida A&M has a white students union or a white students coordiator like Univ. of Florida has a black student union or a black student coordiantor? I wonder if Florida A&M has a diversity plan and a commitment to diversity?
Superdestroyer writes:
>>>Are you claiming that historically black universities are inferior to majority white universities. (The dirty little secret is that they are) During the Gratz lawsuit, several of the Amicus briefs claims that whites needed a criticial mass of minority students (read black) in order receive a full education. Yet, those same amicus briefs seemed to ignore all need for diversity of the black student bodies at the HBU”
I have also addressed the rising number of white students attending HBU’s on this blog. I did so here:
>>>Speaking of which, a little off thread but worthy of mention…here’s an article that gives light to the REVERSE situation…the comfort level of an increasing number of WHITE students at historically black colleges and universities. It’s extremely interesting.
http://home.hamptonroads.com/stories/story.cfm?story=77878&ran=111719
I also don’t understand your point here. Are you claiming that the re-segregation of students at schools in Florida is a good or bad thing? If your goal is to continue this trend, then I can completely understand a celebration on your part for the “One Florida” program. Now, add that to housing discrimination, voter disenfranchisement, a hostile law enforcement and judicial environments and we’ll be back to whistling Dixie at Disneyworld in no time at all, which should bring jubilation in many far right circles.
–Cobra
Perhaps it will take a generation or so (under colorblind rules) to get a lot of minority who are actually qualified for the prestige universities.
That would make these minorities … exactly like the past immigrant ethnic groups (you know, off the boat into blue collar work, next generation goes to night school or low prestige state university, next generation after that breaks into higher prestige universities).
Cobra,
Your stats don’t say anything about other minorities. Since your stats claim about a .9% drop over four years for blacks, yet Governor Bush claims an overall rise in minority enrollment to 34% (from admittedly some uknown number), one can only conclude that other minority groups have managed to gain admittance under a color blind system at an increased rate while somehow, someway blacks have not.
But, of course, being the mathematician that you are, I’m sure you’ve relied on statistical significance in your argument. Is there really any statistical significance to a .9% drop in enrollment of Blacks over a four year period? Does it matter to you that beyond this lack of statistical significance, stats like these do nothing to prove causation of racial impropriety?
Andrew,
I believe that any African American student deprived of access to better themselves in higher education is a tragedy. You don’t. .9% of a drop means that less are getting in than before. That’s intolerable to me. It obviously isn’t to you.
–Cobra
# Andrew,
# I believe that any African American
# student deprived of access to
# better themselves in higher
# education is a tragedy.
What about white students deprived of access by the policies you support, i.e., affirmative racism?
Affirmative Racism is a zero sume game, it creates absolutely nothing, everything it gives blacks, it steals from whites. Does this theft bother you Cobra?
I doubt it, you are party to it and supportive of it.
#–Cobra
Rich
Ugh, Rich, I guess we know where you stand on Reparations, don’t we? Anyway, I missed Cobra’s response on the Civil Rights Act issue. Could someone point that out for me? Thanks.
Here’s my question:
This is talking about enrollment. How about students actually getting degrees?
I went to one of the big prestige schools for my state, and we had an interesting quota: it had to have at least 85% of the enrollment (and I think this included graduate enrollment) be residents of North Carolina. So we did get lots of NC students, many of whom were from more rural areas of the state, and many of whom were the first in their families to go to college. I don’t know if we had racial quotas, too, but there had to be a lowering of standards to get a lot of these other kids into NCSU, because they came from total crap school systems — whether these kids were white or black.
We also had an attrition rate of about 20% between freshman enrollment and beginning of the sophomore year, I do believe. Who do you think were the most likely to drop out? Those from families where both parents had bachelors degrees (like mine) were most likely to stay on.
In any case, many of these students with weaker backgrounds would have been better served by going to the local community college for a couple of years before transferring to State. My husband and I have convinced his oldest daughter to go that route instead of trying for State right away. I would bet she could get into State, but I doubt she could survive freshman year.
The problem is that the prestige schools are pushed too much to people who can get over the admissions hurdle (due to various quotas) but are not prepared for college work.
(Btw, John R: your link is messed up)
So I don’t give a crap about enrollment stats. I want to see the graduation stats. And I’d want them broken down by major/degree. Then we can talk about progress,
meep – thanks; link fixed.
others – by calling my post “Racial Neutrality Works,” I of course did not mean to imply that “working” means producing a racially proportional result on every campus.
If Robert Sander is right, the number of minority graduates may well go up. It is not automatically a good idea to go to the most selective school that will take you and end up flunking out or at the bottom of your class.
Here’s a part of a column I wrote in 2001:
>>>>
Gail Heriot, professor of law at the (private) University of San Diego, has analyzed student achievement at UCSD. The year before the no-preferences policy went into effect, exactly one black student had a freshman-year GPA of 3.5 or higher – just one, among 3,268 freshmen. Among whites, it was 20 percent.
Average GPAs for white or Asian freshmen hovered at or near 3.0; for “underrepresented” students, it was between 2.6 and 2.7. As a result, the proportion of students in trouble academically, with a GPA less than 2.0, was 15 percent for black students compared with 4 percent for whites.
In 1998, the first year there were no preferences, those differences all but disappeared.
Twenty percent of black freshmen were honors students, compared with 16 percent of Asians and 22 percent of whites. The grade-point difference narrowed to 0.1 percent. And the at-risk group shrank to 6 percent.
>>>>
link here:
http://ww2.scripps.com/cgi-bin/archives/denver.pl?DBLIST=rm01&DOCNUM=5426
Linda – Your old column, and current point, are right on target. If Richard Sander’s article does nothing more than shift the debate, even in part, from “who gets in?” to “who gets out?” he will have performed a major service.
Oh well, I guess the Civil Rights Act is just more historical detritus like the Dred Scott decision. Not even worth discussing, really. Seems like a lotta folks made a big fuss over nothing.
The funny thing is, I was in Florida a few years back (1998 or so), and according to the Melbourne Times (whatever) Florida was, at the time, attempting to write Affirmative Racism *into* the Florida Constitution.
So WRT the text of the blog, I find the article someonewhat inconsistent with my observation of Florida politics a few years back.
Now had they done so, I’d love to hear someone like Cobra explain to me how this would not violate “equal protection under the law” as guaranteed by the US Constitution. Then again, I’d also love to hear how Affirmative Racism itself does not violate the equal protection clause, and in California the State Constitution.
Rich
And here we are again at the line in the sand. Obviously, there are those in this blog who will never accept the anti-minority reality that is America, or believe that pro-active measures should be used to counter act that said reality. Of course, with myself being a member of the conscious minority you realize I will present an opposing argument to those who advocate a strategy detrimental to people like me.
Why is this so difficult to comprehend?
–Cobra
Cobra, everything might be a little clearer if you could define “minority.” Are Chinese-Americans “minority”? Are Cuban-Americans “minority”? Are (Asian) Indian-Americans “minority”? Are Pakistani-Americans “minority”? Do all these suffer from “the anti-minority reality that is America”?
Cobra posts…
And here we are again at the line in the sand. Obviously, there are those in this blog who will never accept the anti-minority reality that is America,[…]
—-
Meaning basically that you don’t think that there are enough Black CEOs, eh?
Your problem Cobra, is that you are violently anti-white, and you seem to think that everyone is supposed to be OK with that.
You are a racist by your every word Cobra, so what the hell are you complaining about? If racism is wrong, so is your racism. But you never address questions of right and wrong. Either you don’t understand the concepts (and there is some basis for believing this), or you are a gold-plated hypocrite. Which is it?
If racism is wrong Cobra, then so is your racism.
BTW, can you explain to me the difference between the KKK and the reality of blacks in South Africa killing white farmers and raping and killing their daughters and wives? Explain to me why one is proof of white America racism while the other not worthy of comment, much less actual objection, and the word “racist” remains totally absent. But then, I don’t expect that in Cobra’s book, blacks are capable of racism or even committing crimes. Then again, I saw, Eddy Murphy as I recall, on a talk show stating that blacks should not be arrested for committing crimes, not even armed robbery. What say you?
Rich
Cobra,
I strongly suggest to you that you read all of my comments in this forum about the Sanders article to cleanse your obviously clogged spider -webbed mind of the kind of nonsense that you are muttering in this forum. Like LANI gUINIER, Chris Edley, Bill Kidder, Connie Rice you have a very warped view of this world. You seem to think that whites dominate the universities of this country. That is nonsense. In states where there is a heavy majority of whites like MInnesota or Idaho they dodominate as far as numbers are concerned. That is very different however in states like California or big cities like New York , Chicago and HOuston, they are a distinct minority in the public universities. In fact, whites have experienced a rapid decline in terms of percentage in urban public universities. The last place on earth where whites are going to decline in numbers are private universities like Harvard or Stanford, where they are protected by a vast system of preferences like alumni, athletic and other kinds of preferences. I had seen the statistical trends, and they had clearly shown a continued decline in the number of white people in the public universities specially in places where there are a lot of Asians. I had been telling this forum and a lot of people for a long time about this fact. In the University of Houston for example, Asians are the largest racial group in the entering freshman class. Whites are an absolute minority in the freshman class of the public University of Illinois in Chicago. Here in Calfornia, I had told people that if they want to go to a public university where whites are a majority, they have to go rural areas like Sonoma State, Humboldt State,
Cal State Chico, UC Santa Barbara, or UC Santa Cruz. Santa Barbara and Santa Cruz are among the 3 least competetive of the UC canmpuses. I was telling Stephen Thernstrom ( some professor from Harvard ) whose specialty is ethnic relations about the case of STeve Tillman, the Arizona State football player who walked away from an NFL career to die in combat in Afghanistan from friendly fire. I told Thernstrom that Tillman graduated from Leland High School in the San Jose area. I also happen to know that the average SAT scores of Asians at Leland High School are higher than the average SAT scores of whites at Leland high school. So how can you expect whites to dominate the UNiversity of California, the most competetive uiversity system in the entire country? All of these, I told Therstrom at a conference here in UCLA last year. In actuality, there are more Asian freshman in the UC system than whites for the past 4 years. I can also talk in the same vein about the University of Florida and other Florida public universities. At public Florida International University, whites are actually a minority. In the University of Florida, 2 years ago there were actually more Asian freshman than blacks. The year after that, the number of black freshman in terms of percentage increased at a higher percentage than Asians because of a determined drive By Charles Young to reimpose race preferences. This resulted in a higher percentage of black freshman with lower avearage SAT scores. Is Berkeley actually more oppressive to blacks than Spelman or Morehouse? Let me straighten you out with the facts. Do you know that 33 % of Berkeley freshman for fall 2003 are eligible for Pell grants in contrast to 28 % at Spellman or 30 % at Morehouse?. Pell grants are a measure of poverty. So who is more sppressive towards the poor, Berkeley or Spelman or Morehouse ?. I do not have to remind you that the average SAT scores of blacks at MOrehouse and Spelman are far inferior to the average SAT scores of freshman at Berkeley be they Asian, white, Latinos or black. You simply do not know what you are talking about Cobra.
Cobra,
I disagree with most of what you have to say but I appreciate the way you say it. It is embarrassing to me how many people have attacked you instead of your ideas. Some people, such as Meep and others, have stated counter-arguements and have stuck to the issues so I don’t mean to imply that everyone is being negative.
Keep up the good fight (even though you are wrong ;-) )and thanks for staying positive and not wrestling in the mud with the pigs. When you get around to joining those of us who believe that discrimination is wrong we will be thrilled to have you as an ally!
Ross,
Thank you my friend. I am a passionate advocate of my positions, but that doesn’t make me “hate” any of the posters who call me names. “Sticks and stones…etc” As you put more aptly then any previous poster, their posts condemn them far more than it does me.
Leo Cruz writes:
>>>I do not have to remind you that the average SAT scores of blacks at MOrehouse and Spelman are far inferior to the average SAT scores of freshman at Berkeley be they Asian, white, Latinos or black.>>Dispelling the Myths about Test Preparation and Admissions
MYTH: There is a “magic number” that you must score on a standardized test in order to get into a competitive graduate school.
FACT: While it’s true that many very competitive schools look for a particular score, your score alone will not predict your acceptance or rejection into a competitive school. There is a wide range in scores that schools deem to be acceptable, and they will also look at your other application elements before making a final determination. If your test scores are lower, you’ll most likely need a higher GPA and a more substantial resume to compensate.
MYTH: If you have a solid GPA, your test score isn’t as important for getting into a college or graduate school.
FACT: While it is true that admissions committees consider several factors in their admissions decisions, including test scores, GPA, work or extra-curricular experience, and letters of recommendation, it is not always true that committees will overlook your test scores if you are strong in other areas. Particularly for large programs with many applicants, standardized tests are often the first factor that admissions committees use to evaluate prospective students.
MYTH: Standardized exams test your basic skills or innate ability; therefore your score cannot be significantly improved through studying.
FACT: Nothing could be farther from the truth. You can benefit tremendously from exposure to actual tests and expert insight into the test writers’ habits and the most commonly used tricks.
MYTH: There are lots of skills you can learn to help you improve your math score, but you can’t really improve your verbal score.
FACT: The single best way to improve your verbal score is to improve your vocabulary. Question types in the verbal reasoning sections of standardized tests all rely upon your understanding of the words in the questions and answer choices. If you know what the words mean, you’ll be able to answer the questions quickly and accurately.
MYTH: Standardized exams measure your intelligence.
FACT: While test scores definitely matter, they do NOT test your intelligence. The scores you achieve reflect only how prepared you were to take that particular exam and how good a test taker you are.
http://www.princetonreview.com/testPrep/testprep.asp?TPRPAGE=293&TYPE=LOBBY
I don’t know how Einstein fared on Standardized Tests, if he even took one. I don’t know the SAT scores Bach, Goddard, Shakespeare, or Daniel Hale Williams ( http://www.blackinventor.com/pages/danielwilliams.html). But if you’re attempting to measure the intellectual WORTH of individuals by what they score on standardized tests, then I respectfully question your judgement.
–Cobra
Cobra,
Your ideas are the ones that do not make sense. You have the habit of saying things that does not make sense. I never said SAT scores will translate into success in passing the bar exam or the medical licensing exam. Graduate schools do accept students for all kinds of reasons,even if they are the wrong reasons such as a race preference. I had long realized that private schools and professional schools accept blacks who have lower scores than Asians for the simple reason that they don’t want to sued and denounced as racist. That does not change the fact that blacks admitted thru race preferences in professional schools still have lower passage rates than Asians in the bar and medical licensing exams. That is something very clear. Your claim about Shakespeare and Robert Goddard is senseless, the SAT did not exist in their time. You just sound like that hack Lani Guinier and Martha Tienda ( some hack from Gabriel Rossman’s school called Princeton )who believes that the world can only be made right if the percentage of blacks in a school population is equal to the state’s black population. Guinier even had the nerve to flaunt that lie that the the blacks and Latinos accepted under the 10 % rule in the Texas had even higher average college grades than those who were not accepted under the 10 % rule. Your ideas are garbage Cobra, I don’t care very much about your personality. You are suffering from a certain psychological disorder the kind that many extremists suffer in this world be they Palestinians, Jewish West Bank settlers, Serbian nationalists, Singhalese and Tamils, fundamentalist mullahs, misguided liberals who cannot logically defend their views. Oh yes, conservatives like Bill Buckley and Roger Clegg suffer from it too. You resort to every slight, indignity that blacks have suffered throughout history as a cover or justification to defend race preferences. I had seen your kind before in the country where I came from. You are the sort of person who prefers to wander in the darkness rather than see the light just because you don’t want to be proven wrong. Chris Edley, Lani Guinier, Eve Patterson and the NAACP and the Maldef are of the same ilk as you are. There is not much difference between you and the KKK and Fascist Italy if you had not noticed it yet. You are a common garden variety ignorant person that I had seen around the world. You are just too familiar.
Leo Cruz
Leo Cruz writes:
>>>You are a common garden variety ignorant person that I had seen around the world.”
Whew! That’s a relief, Leo. I was beginning to think you didn’t like me. :-)
Of course, my POINT about mentioning GREAT INDIVIDUALS who never took the SATs was exactly that. I figured that if I make my point that OBVIOUS…well.
You’re entitled to your own opinions, Leo. You’re not entitled to your own FACTS.
–Cobra
Cobra,
At what point in time do you think it will be desireable to stop government discrimination based on skin color?
What has to happen?
Do you agree that having a different set of rules for different people stigmatizes those with the lower bar?
If so, wouldn’t it irritate the heck out of you if you had worked hard for your grades and got into a good school without any preferences but everyone just assumed you were a minority set aside? Look at Clarence Thomas, he says that he was admitted to school with no racial preferences but he is commonly disputed. What is it about his success that is threatening? (Not to you personally, but in general.)
Thanks in advance for a pithy response.
Ross
Cobra, may I reiterate my question above? Who counts as a “minority” in “the anti-minority reality that is America”? I’m not baiting you; I’m genuinely curious.
Ross writes:
>>>At what point in time do you think it will be desireable to stop government discrimination based on skin color?
What has to happen?”
Ross, I may have a different viewpoint on this than others…maybe different from those who even agree that Affirmative Action is still neccessary. I believe that before America can justly remove racial preferences for minorities, the concept of race itself must be truly irrelevant. I don’t mean “irrelevant” as in the “color-blind” fantasies of Ward Connerly and his trifling, throwback initiatives. I mean a FUNDAMENTAL, societal groundswell–“Beige America”…
I could write for pages, but I think you understand what I’m talking about, Ross. We are a balkanized America. As long as there is the reality of a segregated nation, which is borne out in housing statistics, and the very term “United” States borders on delusional, there is a need for racial preference safe guards. I can’t give you a date when the tipping point will be reached, and it’s safe to remove preferences, but I can tell you we’re still a long way from that happening, IMHO.
Michelle writes:
>>>Who counts as a “minority” in “the anti-minority reality that is America”? I’m not baiting you; I’m genuinely curious.”
I won’t fall into this trap. You know the topics I post about, and the subject material. You can draw your own conclusions which group(s) fall into the category I describe as “minority.”
I’ll give you a hint: The minorities I’m talking about DON’T control the vast “majority” of wealth, power and leadership in America.
–Cobra
Cobra,
You are not in possesion of a single iota of fact. If you think that the SATs do not measure anything, fine. Whites or Asians who are denied admissions to universities who are poorer and possess higher grades than blacks and denied admission to schools because of race preferences still incur an injury whether the measure of admission to a school was the SAT or some other kind of test. I can see that you are indeed very ignorant about race preferences. Do you think that the kind of race preferences that you and the ilk of Lani Guinier, Chris Edley, the NAACP, Michael Olivas, Martha Tienda will be tolerated in AFrica or South America or even Mexico . Riots and civil wars have been waged in Nigeria and in other parts of the world because of race preferences in the universities, the civil service etc. You are indeed an ignoramus. BTW, Robert Goddard the rocket scientist probably would have gotten a high score in the Math portion of the SAT exam.
ERRATUM
I was referring to the Arizona State football player Pat Tillman instead of Steve Tillman, who walked out of an NFL contract in order to be with the army in Afghanistan where he was subsequently killed thru friendly fire.
Everyone the 1:43 AM post was made yours truly by Leo Cruz
Cobra says
“>>> …. I can ‘t give you the time when the tipping point when race preferences will be removed ”
Really Cobra, you do sound like Lani Guinier don’t you ? The only way blacks are gonna be on the same level as whites or Asians is if you , the NAACP, black parents encourage blacks to study hard and cease wasting their time demanding race preferences. It is not a matter of time to wait for the tipping point. Whether it will be 10, 15, 20 years from now when the average SAT scores of whites will be equal to whites, It is a matter of what is right and wrong, blacks do not need race preferences whether their average SAT scores are lower, equal or higher than the average SAT scores of whites, Comprende ?you member of the Elapid family ( the genus where the Cobra belongs )?
Leo Cruz
Leo Cruz writes:
>>>Whether it will be 10, 15, 20 years from now when the average SAT scores of whites will be equal to whites, It is a matter of what is right and wrong, blacks do not need race preferences whether their average SAT scores are lower, equal or higher than the average SAT scores of whites, Comprende ?you member of the Elapid family ( the genus where the Cobra belongs )?”
You know, it’s funny. You’ve gone OUT OF YOUR WAY to endorse my viewpoints. Let me remind you again what the PRINCETON REVIEW’s statement on SATs is:
>>>FACT: While test scores definitely matter, they do NOT test your intelligence. The scores you achieve reflect only how prepared you were to take that particular exam and how good a test taker you are.
http://www.princetonreview.com/testPrep/testprep.asp?
So basically, it’s PREPARATION, Leo. It’s NURTURE, and not NATURE. If you walk into an SAT test and NOT know that you’ll get a better score by SKIPPING questions you don’t know instead of guessing, you have a distinct advantage. That, of course, isn’t as provocative as implying blacks are inferior because of lower aggregate test scores. You have this “SAT Racial Hiearchy” going on in your themes.
That’s ok by me. Hey, Flat Earth Society members are still milling about. http://www.flat-earth.org/
Maybe, I should re-introduce myself. I’m Cobra–an African American liberal who will not be quiet when people start proposing strategies detrimental to me and mine.
I guess it’s a hard pill to swallow for some…but…
–Cobra
“If you walk into an SAT test and NOT know that you’ll get a better score by SKIPPING questions you don’t know instead of guessing, you have a distinct advantage.”
No you don’t. At least not if the person walking in who doesn’t know that is capable of reading/listening comprehension. They certainly tell you that you are penalized for guessing in the instructions. I’d wager they even tell you to guess if you’ve narrowed it down, thereby removing any “hidden” (hidden meaning, in this context, requiring one step of extrapolation) element of strategy.
The SAT is not a difficult or tricky test. While test preparation can help, just as computers and learning software and other tools can help, all that’s really needed is a brain and knowledge of the core curriculum that the SAT tests.
Cobra,
I think that you and I want the same thing although we both think the other is delusional and niave in their approach. Have you seen the research that indicates the performance gap on standardized tests is a result of self-fulfilling prophecies?
In short, when a group is told that a different group is much better at a task the performance of the “inferior” group goes down.
Here is a link to a summary of some of the research.
http://www.fairtest.org/examarts/fall95/vulnerab.htm
OK, I asked Cobra what he meant by “minority.” The response:
I won’t fall into this trap. You know the topics I post about, and the subject material. You can draw your own conclusions which group(s) fall into the category I describe as “minority.”
I’ll give you a hint: The minorities I’m talking about DON’T control the vast “majority” of wealth, power and leadership in America.
Well, now. There is no non-white ethnic group that “controls the vast majority” of anything in this country. So all non-white people and all non-European immigrants would seem to qualify. But in the “anti-minority reality that is America,” I gather that you would not extend affirmative action to all “minorities” under that definition. Why not?
Cobra,
Re the SAT, it isn’t true that skipping questions is better than guessing randomly. What is true is that there is a correction in the exam meant to counteract random guessing. IIRC, your raw score is the right answers minus the wrong answers divided by four (the number of choices on a question). In other words, between random guesses and leaving a question blank, it’s a wash. The test is designed that way.
What kids unfamiliar with the test might not realize is that if you can positively eliminate one or more answers, it’s to your advantage to guess among the remaining ones, rather than skipping the question. But even that isn’t exactly a closely-guarded secret, privy only to those who take expensive prep courses. It’s about the first thing you read when you crack open one of those (relatively) cheap SAT prep books, Barrons’ or the like. The only SAT prep I did was out of one of those books, but even before I bought it, one of my teachers had explained that point to the class. If you really don’t have any idea, there’s no point in guessing, except as a gamble. If you can positively eliminate an answer, guess among the remaining ones, and (statistically speaking) you come out ahead. (As I recall it, this led into a nice lecture on probabilities.)
Cobra says,
>>>>> o basically, it’s PREPARATION, Leo. It’s NURTURE, and not NATURE. If you walk into an SAT test and NOT know that you’ll get a better score by SKIPPING questions you don’t know instead of guessing, you have a distinct advantage. That, of course, isn’t as provocative as implying blacks are inferior because of lower aggregate test scores. You have this “SAT Racial Hiearchy” going on in your themes……
Do you really want me to deal with this kind of rubbish ? I had long known that rich folks hire tutors to get their kids to score high in these SAT exams. Just go to the private schools like Groton and Philips Andover and you will ifnd out that review classes for the SAT are drilled into the brains of the kids that it does indeed to a point make the SAT avearages of the kids in these schools go up. Do you honestly think I am ignorant of those facts? I am not, but nowhere does it justify race preferences. Wealthy black kids who get SAT prep classes still on the avearage get lower SAT scores than Asians and whites. Black kids who come from household incomes of 70k dollars still have lower average SAT scores than Asians who come from household inomces of 30k dollars.
Poor immigrant Chinese kids in the Lower EAst Side of Manhattan have REgents Math score exam averages higher than every black neigborhood in New YOrk and equal to the average scores of white middle class and rich
high school kids in Tottenville high school in Staten Island. The children of Bill Cosby the neices of Lani Guinier and the members of the Boule and Links fraternal organizations have average lower SAT scores than poorer Asian kids. The aforementioned folks and organizations have every opportunity to give their kids the every opportunity to attend SAT prep classes, but the performance of their children is still way below that of Asian kids. Yes Cobra, we have a SAT hierarchy, but it is a hierarchy of missed opportunities.
Leo Cruz writes:
>>>Wealthy black kids who get SAT prep classes still on the avearage get lower SAT scores than Asians and whites. Black kids who come from household incomes of 70k dollars still have lower average SAT scores than Asians who come from household inomces of 30k dollars.
Poor immigrant Chinese kids in the Lower EAst Side of Manhattan have REgents Math score exam averages higher than every black neigborhood in New YOrk and equal to the average scores of white middle class and rich
high school kids in Tottenville high school in Staten Island. The children of Bill Cosby the neices of Lani Guinier and the members of the Boule and Links fraternal organizations have average lower SAT scores than poorer Asian kids. The aforementioned folks and organizations have every opportunity to give their kids the every opportunity to attend SAT prep classes, but the performance of their children is still way below that of Asian kids. Yes Cobra, we have a SAT hierarchy, but it is a hierarchy of missed opportunities.”
Well, Leo…Your argument takes the NATURE aspect of my statement, which means you, at some level are stating that no matter WHAT environment black children are raised in, they are “pre-ordained” to score lower on the SATs than whites and Asians. That viewpoint doesn’t give a solution for improving test scores. In fact, if one was suspicious, one might imply that you’re claiming blacks are “less intelligent” than other races.
Now, far be it from me to ASSUME that from your comments, but I think you should EXPLAIN WHY you believe that no matter what economic and educational circumstances, blacks in your opinion, don’t do as well on standardized tests.
–Cobra
The fault lies in black culture.
Take a really smart black kid. Put him into any public school in America where there are other blacks. What can he expect?
Well, for starters, he can expect to be hassled and ridiculed if he spends more time studying than he does hanging out with his friends. Black culture tells kids that black group identity is more important than learning and success.
If he ignores his ‘peers’ and continues to study and get good grades in school, he can probably be expected to experience further hassles, likely also physical threats or actual assaults, attempts to sabotage his school work, and other efforts by his black ‘peers’ to keep him from ‘getting above himself’.
So how many kids have the strength to resist this kind of pressure? And throw in similar pressure, both explicit and implicit, from family, school officials, church, etc. It’s no wonder so few black kids succeed.
I feel sorry for them, but it’s a problem that only the black community can fix. The first hurdle is believing it’s possible, and that’s where folks like Cobra and the self-appointed ‘leaders’ like Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson do the most damage by constantly drumming that old saw about ‘whitey’s keepin’ you down’ and reinforcing the sense of powerlessness in the black community.
The difference between native black Americans and recent black immigrants is not one of intelligence or civil rights. Rather, it is one of attitude. Once immigrants lose that belief in their ability to succeed and fall in line with other black Americans’ attitudes, they have the same difficulties. Those who continue to believe in themselves and in their own ability to succeed with hard work do manage to succeed.
Colin Powell and Condoleeza Rice are excellent examples of black success. They are also targets of black hatred for their success by those who consider success itself to be a betrayal of the black community. Talk about self-sabotage.
That sounds like a seriously racially insensitive stereotyping of black people Clarie.
I went to a school that was like 15% black people and it really came from the family as to whether a black student would succeed or fail because percentage-wise there were as many ‘fuck-up’ white kids as there were black kids.