One of the long-standing criticisms of racial preference programs is that they stigmatize the recipients of preferential treatment. Defenders of those programs find it difficult to respond to this argument, since it is in fact difficult to defend programs whose essence involves admitting minority students with lower grades and test scores than their non-minority peers while simultaneously criticizing those who assume that minority students they encounter were admitted with lower grades and test scores.
One typical response to this dilemma has been an attempt to stigmatize those who point out the nature and effect of preference programs, and this response is now becoming evident in some responses to the Sander study of affirmative action in law schools.
For example, Nakia Thomas, vice president of the Black Law Students Association at the University of Pennsylvania, worries that “the relatively small number of black law students at Penn may face renewed stigma with the public controversy surrounding the study.”
In other words, it is controversy over preference programs that causes stigma, not the preferences themselves.
John writes:
>>>For example, Nakia Thomas, vice president of the Black Law Students Association at the University of Pennsylvania, worries that “the relatively small number of black law students at Penn may face renewed stigma with the public controversy surrounding the study.”
In other words, it is controversy over preference programs that causes stigma, not the preferences themselves.”
John, you left out the money line of the Nakia’s quote, which was:
“I’m sure our classmates may start to think their [black] classmates are not so qualified,” she said.
I interpret that to mean exactly what she said. As much as you may disagree with me, there are many Americans who believe that blacks are less intelligent, and therefore, less qualified to not only attend the same schools as whites, but hold the same positions as whites in the business world. I believe Nakia’s statement is an acknowlegement that no matter what HER qualifications may have been to attend U of Penn, there would be many white students who feel that she didn’t deserve to be there.
–Cobra
I don’t see how you read that into what she said, Cobra.
The post-busing generation, in large measure, holds little or none of the feelings towards blacks that you note; however, when they ultimately see how AA works in practice, that’s when they begin feeling resentment… and wondering whether black colleagues got their job due to racial preference.
I should have written “post-busing generation pre-college harbors little or none of those feelings…”
Cobra – Sit down and hold on: I actually DO agree with you. Many whites DO believe blacks are less qualified, a belief that is re-inforced by the practice of racial preference. Ms. Thomas may well be as well qualified as any of the whites/Asians/etc. at the Penn law school, but as long as Penn continues to admit many blacks with lower test scores and grades than other students, the other students will quite predictably assume that blacks they encounter have lower grades and test scores.
John,
Miracles never cease, I guess. :-) The opposite side of this coin of course, is that those white students who think all blacks don’t deserve to be where they are, would naturally assume all whites DO deserve to be there, which I believe is the more dangerous assumption given the number of minorities on most campuses.
Dave,
Recent events on college campuses would tell me that student attitudes towards minorities hasn’t changed all that much over the year.
Case in point, the David Horowitz Ads, Affirmative Action bake sales by campus republicans, and oh those nutty little parties that get thrown every now and then:
http://colorblind.typepad.com/the_colorblind_society/2004/01/the_republican_.html
I believe the college campus is a reflection of the larger society in regards to race, and it’s not a flattering picture of America.
–Cobra
In my work with high schoolers, I find very little racial prejudice – until after they go away to college. Then I start to see a scary amount of it. From listening to them, I think AA plays a big part in that.
Cobra: The David Horowitz ads and AA bake sales directly address the folly of AA in regards to the perception of “less qualified” blacks — which is John’s overall point here!
I agree with KRM.
But I will agree with you, Cobra, that the college campus as a microcosm of society has a bit of merit — but not in the same way you believe.
Cobra,
I would draw a distinction between things that attack ethnic groups (eg. blackface frat parties) and things that attack policies (eg. AA bake sales). Even if you believe that affirmative action is of great benefit to blacks, criticizing it is clearly distinct from criticizing them. In principle, and usually in practice, there’s a difference between policy disputes and displays of bigotry .
“…those white students who think all blacks don’t deserve to be where they are…”
How many white students actually believe that? It’s a pretty horrifying accusation to make. I think it’s much more likely that, given all the press that the Michigan court cases got, white and black students have to know that black kids likely aren’t held to as high a standard for admission as white kids are. It’s not thinking that a black kid doesn’t deserve to be there because he’s black. Is it surprising that a black student may feel that the other students suspect he may not be as able as the white kids? If there were no AA, that particular problem would evaporate.
Here’s something else. My daughter is only a senior in high school, and she’s already pretty sick of the white-man-evil stuff they’re getting in English and history classes. Yes, there’s a backlash for that sort of thing. I’ve had to work pretty hard, telling her I think she’s being too sensitive, and that we can’t pretend Jim Crow stuff didn’t happen, and so forth, to try to keep her from turning into what the school seems to assume she already is. I can’t read King’s Letter from the Birmingham Jail without having tears run down my face; she can’t stand reading it because she’s sick of being hit over the head with the evil white man stick. I mean, in my day we watched “The Autobiography of Miss Jane Pittman” and so forth, but they didn’t cram all this down our throats. The funny thing is, she has a friend who is Russian, and this friend was taught back home that black people are inherently inferior, immoral and what not, and it fell to my kid to straighten her out about that. So they could really leave her race-awareness to her conscience and her upbringing, and probably that’s the case with most of the kids in this day and age.
Laura,
I think the experience of your daughter is in no way uncommon. When I was a high school senior I had begun to feel that public discussions of the race issue had become virtually choreographed. Racism had to be offered as the greatest barrier to black progress, and blacks themselves had still to be seen primarily as racial victims. Whites had to show both concern and a measure of befuddlement at how other whites could still be racist. There also had to be in whites a clear deference to the greater racial authority of blacks, whose color translated into a certain racial expertise.
Fast forward to college: pretty much the same stuff, only more of it — a lot of nice people and decent teachers hopelessly buried under layers of bureaucratic battles, petty moral and career rivalries, futile attempts to get everyone on the same page, an infinity of small resentments — the whole tedious, snake-eating-its-tail drama of good intentions.
I too agree that the college campus as a microcosm of society has a bit of merit. But colleges are a poor instrument of meritocracy. As I see it, the promise of merit-based admission is more a folkloristic than a reality-based one.
I think the kids themselves have no illusions about this. In a way they’re sublime cynics. They know that the selection process is marinated in a quirky favoritism of one sort or another, that an incoming class isn’t so much admitted as it is composed.
They understand that they compete not on their overall deservingness, but on their ability to edge out others from the same sliver of the candidate pie that they’ve been consigned to — whether violinists, linebackers, able linguist, Upstate Michiganites, or yes, blacks (preferably from an well-to-do, suburban background).
The whole affair has been totally tribalized: You compete with those of your kind. You don’t need to beat out the Jewish kid with 1600 SATs from Bronx Science unless you’re also a Jewish physics whiz from New York.
Your biggest rivals are those most like you. If you’re heartset on Stanford and two others from your high school class are applying, they’re your competitors. If, on top of that, all three of you are Hispanic, male soccer standouts, you’ve got a big problem. From the college’s perspective, you’re equivalents, and probably two of you will not make the cut.
David,
Excellent posts, my friend. We agree on the basics of this entire argument over preferences. My biggest bone of contention with my fellow posters here is the SELECTIVE OUTRAGE they seem to convey when African Americans receive the preference.
Laura,
I understand your daughter’s situation. This is certainly not a one way street as far as racial discussions in America. I was on vacation one year in Florida, and while riding in a hotel elevator with a woman I had just met, a cherubic little white girl, who was all of 6 years old asked me:
“Do you work here?”
The woman, who happened to be white, who was with me immediately chastised the girl, saying “No, he doesn’t work here. What makes you ask that?”
The girl didn’t say anything else the whole ride.
Now, I don’t believe that the 6 year old had any malicious intent. I honestly didn’t think it was that big a deal, but the woman who was with me took it as a huge affront. Obviously, children absorb attitudes and perceptions from their environment, particularly their parents.
It’s my viewpoint that most minorities are very conscious of their minority status in America and issues that pertain to them. It’s also my viewpoint that most whites in America don’t have to think about race until they are directly confronted with the issue, and in a largely segregated society, it doesn’t happen that often.
The policy issue is also telling, for it’s PERCEPTION that is the important factor. When Dick Cheney voted against Meals on Wheels for seniors, policy wonks and budget penny counters touted the “fat trimmed” from the budget from an “entitlement” program. Poor, hungry Senior Citizens who were getting FED by Meals on Wheels had a different opinion.
The bottom line is that you all have a tough perception argument to make to minorities for ending Affirmative Action, if your only stated benefit for doing so is to make the white majority population “feel better.”
–Cobra
I’m sure it won’t be long before Ms. Thomas hits on the obvious solution: simply term any discussion of the study to be hate speech and either ban it outright or make sure opprobrium gathers to anyone who tries to talk about it.
Cobra,
What in the world is it that you want from life?
You seem to be a professional offense taker. Do you do anything else?
Actually, nobody has suggested that ending the racial quota system should be done for the sake of making anybody feel good. The argument is that the racial quota system violates the most basic precepts of our democratic system, which is equal opportunity for everybody.
You also spend a lot of time assuming that you know the motivations of people around you. Why are you so sure that you know this? Given the horrendous failure of black men to succeed in education and jobs, assuming that a black man has a menial job is not evidence of racism. What else should we assume when we encounter a black man? Failure is epidemic among black men. Assuming that a black man is a failure at education and job is a pretty safe bet. Are you succeeding there?
When I meet an Asian, I assume that that Asian is succeeding in education, job, family and love, because experience tells me this is so. And, more often than not, I am right.
You blow a lot of hot air. I suspect another avalanche of accusations of racism. You have very little else to say.
Stephen writes:
>>>What else should we assume when we encounter a black man? Failure is epidemic among black men. Assuming that a black man is a failure at education and job is a pretty safe bet. Are you succeeding there?
When I meet an Asian, I assume that that Asian is succeeding in education, job, family and love, because experience tells me this is so. And, more often than not, I am right.
Cobra,
You failed to answer my question.
Black men are failing at getting an education and a decent job in extraordinary numbers. This is not true for black women. It is not racism to recognize the obvious and act on it.
Your response is a non-response. In fact, I take it as an agreement.
Seeing and recognizing the obvious is not racism. It is you who is the obvious and unrepetant racist.
Cobra,
I’m going to ask you again, since you are too obsessed and single-minded to understand without repetition.
Can you put aside your virulent and unrepentant hard-care racism and answer the real question I asked. I doubt it. You are too vicious a racist to do so.
I’m going to appeal to the sane respondents of this site to answer Cobra. He is attempting, as is the wont of black racists, to insist that the failure of black men is to be blamed on whites. What a crock! Cobra, it’s the fault of black men.
The statistics about black men are pretty grim. In most major cities, it is estimated that about half of all black men are currently in trouble with the law. This means, almost certainly, that they are either unemployed or employed in menial jobs.
In every company that I’ve worked in, an educated black man in even a middle level executive position is a rarity… almost non-existent. Black women got the message long ago that promotion and achievement was possible if they got an education and worked hard. Black women commonly occupy mid and upper level management positions in every company in which I’ve worked.
The failure of black men to secure an adequate education is so obvious, it doesn’t even bear addressing.
So, what’s the argument here? That we should ignore reality or we are racists? This is nonsense. Any sane and intelligent person will assume that the chances are 2 out of 3 that any black man he encounters is employed in a menial job, probably is in trouble with the law, and is wasting his time (as Cobra does) blaming whites for his own failures.
I asked Cobra whether he is also a failure at education and jobs. His non-response is the answer. The fact that he spends his life blaming whites for his failures is the answer.
Cobra, you have been revealed again for precisely what you are. The wise-ass responses are non responses.
“The bottom line is that you all have a tough perception argument to make to minorities for ending Affirmative Action, if your only stated benefit for doing so is to make the white majority population ‘feel better.'”
Cobra, how long have you been reading John’s posts and the comments? Have you not run across any other stated benefits? Have you even run across that one?
But I thought your story about the little girl was very appropriate. She must have been bewildered, because at her age it probably never occurred to her that working at the hotel implied lack of social status or anything else negative. I can imagine her thinking, “Heck, all I did was ask an innocent question and I got my head handed to me by somebody I wasn’t even talking too. Catch me speaking to a black person again.” And so it goes.
Laura,
First, the subject of this thread is “Stigma”, concerning the belief among many white college students that the black students they see are somewhat less qualified to be there than themselves. My commentary on “making white people feel better” is a direct response to the notion that simply ending Affirmative Action will end the stigma.
Here is one example of post Prop 209 California and “stigmatization”
>>> Chad Sterling, a graduate student in computer science and co-chair for the Black Graduate and Professional Association, said that black students often lack exposure to college preparatory curricula while in elementary and high school, and that African American women enter and graduate from college twice as often as men.
Sterling, one of a small number of black students in his computer science program, said he has found his graduate experience “isolating.” He said he fears making a mistake in class and being viewed as inferior, and also feels isolated when it comes time to choose a partner for group projects or homework.
“You see a lot of faces turn away when you try to make that eye contact,” he said”
http://www.californiaaggie.com/article/?id=6288
Here is an excerpt from another excellent article in the Washington Post:
>>> The Journal of Blacks in Higher Education, however, has been able to assemble much of the relevant information. So have some academicians. We learn from the journal that 292,855 students applied to the 24 most prestigious universities in America for admission to the freshman class of 1996. About 5 percent of these applicants — 13,801 — were black. The schools offered admission to 96,369 students (33 percent of all the students who applied). They offered admission to 35 percent of the black applicants — 5,563 students — but only 2,305 accepted (41 percent). They represented a small percentage of the new freshmen that year — from fewer than one percent at CalTech to 12 percent at the University of Virginia.
How many of these black students were academically “unqualified” for the schools that admitted them? The journal obtained SAT scores from a number of these leading schools. The midpoint score for white students in all the schools was higher than the midpoint scores of black students. The gap ranged from 288 points at the Berkeley campus of the University of California to 150 points at Princeton, Johns Hopkins and other schools. Those numbers quantify the “racial preference” involved in some of these admissions. But in every case, the black students in these elite schools had higher average SAT scores — in some cases as much as 200 points higher — than the national average (946) for whites. The explanation is simple. SAT scores at these “elite” schools are astronomical in terms of what the average high school graduate achieves on the test. At Harvard, for example, the midpoint SAT score for blacks in the freshman class in 1992 (I have not found more recent numbers) was 1,305, a score that would get these students into any university in the world, a score so close to the white midpoint score that it was described by an affirmative action critic as not “statistically meaningful.”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/special/affirm/stories/aaop011298.htm
Now, that’s the kind of information that answers people like STEPHEN, who believes:
>>>Any sane and intelligent person will assume that the chances are 2 out of 3 that any black man he encounters is employed in a menial job, probably is in trouble with the law, and is wasting his time (as Cobra does) blaming whites for his own failures.
I asked Cobra whether he is also a failure at education and jobs. His non-response is the answer. The fact that he spends his life blaming whites for his failures is the answer.”
And he WONDERS why I view his visceral attacks on me as nothing more than comic relief?
–Cobra
Cobra, if a black person feels that he is slighted because he thinks AA makes the white people think he’s not qualified, then abolishing AA ought to make the black person feel better. “Sterling, one of a small number of black students in his computer science program, said he has found his graduate experience ‘isolating.’ He said he fears making a mistake in class and being viewed as inferior….” This is not about making white people feel better. It’s not about white people’s feelings at all.
I’m not sure about the point you’re making, about the average SAT score of black students at Harvard being higher than the average SAT score of all white students. The average SAT score of white students at Harvard is considerably higher than the average SAT score of all white students. That’s what makes Harvard such a competitive, and therefore prestigious, school to get into.
Laura,
The point is about the stigma itself. Stephen, for example, ASSUMES that every black male he comes across is “failure” of some type, either in education, or society. Stephen is certainly not alone in that thinking, which makes him a perfect example. Providing evidence that refutes people’s stereotypes is one way to combat at least a portion of that stigma, because obviously, if there are black males intelligent enough to be accepted at Harvard, then there are black males intelligent enough to be accepted at ANY college, which would put aside the notion that any black face a white student sees on their campus somehow “cheated to get in.”
As far as the little girl on the elevator goes, she did indeed learn something IMHO, though not what you believed she did.
–Cobra
Well, Cobra, I’d think “the notion that any black face a white student sees on their campus somehow “cheated to get in.”” really isn’t that prevalent.
Rather it may be the case that more often than not there will be a doubt whether the black person got an additional boost to get in, and, of course, whether the black person could have made it without that boost which usually is called “Affirmative Action”.
That’s part of the dilemma. On the one hand, it’s hard to quarrel with a form of favoritism that aims to level the playing field among applicants. Some kids overcome unusual obstacles to achieve modest results; regarding those results as exceptional is not wrong. Standardized tests are biased in some way, tending to favor people who were groomed to take them, and capable people from some backgrounds don’t excel at the skills that the tests measure. Adjusting acceptance criteria to reflect that reality is not completely unfair.
On the other hand, acceptance does get one only so far. Then it’s “sink or swim!” and haven gotten on the playing field will not mean much for those who can’t swim.
Cobra, I can’t account for the Stephens out there. I can’t control his thought processes, and you can’t either. And we shouldn’t want to. It’s a free country. But if you’re basing your attitude about AA on his comments, you’re getting sidetracked. Stephen does not represent the white race. He represents Stephen. Make of that what you will.
What exactly do you think the little girl (six years old, you said; that means kindergarten or first grade) learned in that elevator?
And by the way – is it really that much of an insult for someone to think you work at a hotel? Hotel employees are that far beneath you? I’m trying to put myself in your shoes, imagining that because I’m a woman a little child might think I work as a housekeeper or in the kitchen. Would I see that as a putdown? If I thought that way for two seconds I’d be ashamed of myself.
Laura,
I wasn’t the one responding to the little girl. As I wrote, I didn’t really think that much of the entire event, but the white woman with me made the reaction. Now, I have a good enough sense of myself to understand that a little girl her age doesn’t read that deeply into all of this. But that being said…I realize that as America re-segregates itself, and different groups spend less and less time interacting, all sorts of assumptions and stereotypes will come into play on ALL SIDES.
As far as Stephen and folks like him…picture a six year old black boy overhearing one of his vicious rants about black men. What lasting impression do you think that boy will have about white people, especially if he lives in a racially segregated neighborhood?
It cuts both ways, Laura.
–Cobra
So what’s your point? White racists exist so you get a pass to be as racist as you want?
Laura,
Pointing out bias in society doesn’t make somebody a racist. You’re absolutely right when you say we can’t control what other people think. That’s why this topic on “Stigma” is very interesting. It’s just that I believe that in American society is that a minority has many unseen obstacles to overcome that many who aren’t minorities are either unaware of at best, or obstacle builders themselves.
Does that excuse me from treating people I meet with dignity and respect? Nope.
–Cobra
Cobra,
If only you had a brain, it would be interesting to discuss this with you.
Observing reality is not racism. It is realism. Will the overwhelming failure of black men go away if I stop noticing it? This is rank nonsense.
America is not re-segregating itself. You really talk a lot of BS.
I’m not intimidated by your constant insistence that anybody who disagrees with you is a racist. You are a racist, Cobra. Pot calling the kettle black. Indeed.
Stephen writes:
>>>If only you had a brain, it would be interesting to discuss this with you.
Observing reality is not racism. It is realism. Will the overwhelming failure of black men go away if I stop noticing it? This is rank nonsense.”
Now there you go again. You try to have a serious conversation, and Stephen Steps in to Stigmatize. I don’t mind though. I’ve come to expect that from him, and others like him, but Stephen never fails to put a smile on my face.
Happy Thanksgiving, buddy! :-)
–Cobra
Cobra, I think you’re missing some key points.
First, a 1307 won’t get you into “any college in the country”. It won’t get you into most top schools, actually, although it is pretty good.
The point is that if people only went where their numbers entitled them, then everyone would probably have more respect for each other as equals.
On the other hand, if you give large preferences to most URM’s then the only rational assumption is that most URM’s, at any institution, aren’t as qualified.
This is what stigmatizes people.
(Given that legacy admissions is almost non-existent in law school, I’m not sure why we would assume white people didn’t deserve to get in. Again, this is the same logic that would apply if minorities were admitted on a color-blind basis.)
Finally, the problem with AA isn’t that it bothers white people. It’s that it’s inherently unfair as currently practiced, it stigmatizes the accomplishments of minorities, it reinforces the idea of racial distinctions, it sets minorities up for failure, and it perpetuates (and appears ultimately premised upon) the stereotype of minority inferiority. If you’re okay with all that, then I guess I can understand your position.