David Bernstein has an interesting post on Volokh today persuasively arguing that “the entire debate over affirmative action has been poisoned by the failure of its advocates to acknowledge what it really means in practice (O’Connor, in Grutter, studiously avoided this herself).”
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True, but many on the right have also shied away from telling the truth about what getting rid of racial preferences at elite academic institutions would really mean in terms of the sharp dropoff in the number of American-born blacks and Hispanics who would qualify under a colorblind system. When called on it, too many critics of preferences then say, “Well, all we have to do is fix the schools,” as if that is some easy fix.
In reality, if we could do that, it would take at least a generation and probably more to have a sizable impact. Further, we have absolutely no idea how to narrow the racial achievement gap to any substantial extent. The problem has been studied and experimented over for forty years and what we typically find is that improving the schools is just as likely to broaden the racial gap as narrow it.
The essential problem is that the racial test score gap is almost as big among preschoolers, suggesting that schooling is secondary.
The real question to keep asking is: “Why do the children of college educated white collar blacks have lower SAT scores and lower GPA than the children of blue collar whites?” Affirmative action is just a way to ignore the failure of black americn to make education and achievement important
Steve, do you believe that the solution is race-norming, now and forever? I’m asking. For all I know, it could be. If it is, though, we might as well go on and do it, and forget all the doubletalk about diversity.
There may always be a gap between east asians and europeans, in IQ scores. But we know that east asians utilize academic libraries more than european students for study, and east asians spend far more time studying.
So how do you separate the effort made from the supposed genetic advantage? When comparing east asians to whites it is very difficult.
When comparing blacks to hispanics, likewise, the effort made seems to overshadow any supposed genetic advantage. If studying hard is considered to be acting white, black children will often avoid studying.
What if we find that groups tend to stratify, in terms of mean ability? Do we stop trying to narrow the gaps? Maybe a wise society would stop looking at groups and look at individual students–to maximise ability for each person.
I am in strong agreement with Bernstein’s statement about the dishonesty of (fellow?) AA-supporters. I’m amazed they haven’t yet noticed that nobody is fooled any more by their mutually exclusive claims that “The black students’ records are similar to the whites'” and “Getting rid of AA will cause a drastic reduction in the number of black students”. People get so resentful at being the target of such nonsense we lose any chance of broadening support for specific, effective, fixed-term remedial programs.
Where are the statistics on biracial and multiracial students? The statistics generally don’t breakdown the “white” test scores of Jewish Americans versus other white ethnicities due to the “melting pot”.
If the alleged goal of the anti-affirmative action types is a “color-blind” society, one of the strategies would naturally follow to eliminate the physical distinction of race itself. That would occur through prolific miscegenation. After all, the conditions of school districts becomes EVERYBODY’S issue when EVERYBODY is related and has a personal stake in their performances. I’m wondering where the “dishonesty” falls when THAT part of the “let’s go back to 1954” proponents start chirping.
–Cobra
Cobra poated:
If the alleged goal of the anti-affirmative action types is a “color-blind” society, […]
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Who’s making this allegatoin? You ain’t color-blind, the NAACP is not, neither is most of the black population (and the entite foreign born population).
The issue, which you are too racist to get anywhere near, is that Affirmative Racism is clearly and blatantly wrong.
There will never be a day when you will see blatant racist or sexist discrimination against me or people like me as either wrong, or a problem. So tell me again why discrimination against you or people like you is wrong or a problem.
If racism is wrong, then you are wrong. If the racism you support and defend is not wrong, then you have no complaint whatsoever. Take your pick, you are wrong in either case.
Rich
You can’t blame me for wanting to get ahead. People will take advantage of any opportunity they have. Stop trying to make that look wrong.
Akefa,
The gist of the problem we both face is that these anti-affirmative action types…people like Rich, don’t really CARE if you face anti-minority bias in employment, education, loans, justice, etc. That’s why they’re so eager to return to the time where there WAS NO Affirmative Action, and when white patronage, privilege and monopoly was unchallenged. People who actually READ the statistics available know that white patronage, privileg and monopoly still FLOURISHES in America. It’s just a case of whether is bothers you enough to want to do something to help counter the obvious biases.
People who think like me do.
People who think like THEM don’t.
It’s very simple, actually, Akefa.
–Cobra
Cobra posted:
The gist of the problem we both face is that these anti-affirmative action types…people like Rich, don’t really CARE if you face anti-minority bias in employment, education, loans, justice, etc. […]
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The gist of the problem is that Affirmative Racism types like Cobra *demand* that white men face biases in employment, education, loans, justice, etc…
To make matters worse, bigots of Cobra’s stature think that NOT discriminating against whites is discrimination against blacks.
He’s proven by now that he could care less how many whites Affirmative Racism hurts, and that’s being very generous, his attitude is much worse.
I’ve tried many times to get Cobra to address the issue of right’s and wrongs, to no avail. Cobra apparently feels wronged when whites are not discriminated against. There is no possible reasonable solution, Cobra is driven by hatred of whites and is at war with whites. No black bigot faces his condemnation, criticism, or wrath.
And there is no possibility that the fact that everyone deserves equal protection against discrimination if it is wrong will never be discussed by, much less agreed to by Cobra. He remains a staunch opponent of whites and the Civil and Constitutional rights of whites. And he is damn proud of it.
And so this will escalate. The sooner the better if you ask me.
Rich
Cobra,
What you perceive as ‘white privilege’ is really the ‘privilege’ of being intelligent and willing to work hard versus standing around with your hand out and whining about how hard you’ve got it.
Maybe the reason you didn’t get the job, or get into the college you wanted, or get served at the local store WASN’T because you’re black. It was because you were a rude, obnoxious, ill-mannered brat with a chip on your shoulder and an attitude.
Try learning a few manners, and treating others the way you’d like to be treated. See if the ‘discrimination’ doesn’t disappear. Then it wasn’t discrimination because of the color of your skin; it was distaste for the crassness of your behavior.
akefa posted:
You can’t blame me for wanting to get ahead. […]
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Depends on *how* you get ahead. If it’s by stealing jobs and opportunities from others, then you are a thief and quite deserving of blame. If you simultaneously call those you steal jobs and opportunities from bigots and claim that discrimination is wrong, then you are also a hypocrite. Given the forum and nature of the discussion, it seems likely that you are both.
Rich
Claire,
Why do you make this personal? Unless you’re taking a literary license to an Olympian degree, how on earth do you know how I carry myself, or behave? How can you assess my intelligence, dilligence or work ethic? You don’t KNOW WHO I AM. How can you make these assumptions, UNLESS you’re making a sweeping generalization about ALL MINORITIES, and STEREOTYPING.
That’s not a great debating style, Claire.
Rich, I don’t know what to say to you, other that you’re not alone. There are many who agree with your philosphy at Stormfront, Aryan Nations, World Church of the Creator, Christian Identity, the CCC, Southern Partisan, and the NAAWP. I’m not going to reach you. You’re far gone… too entrenched in your homogenized bunker, waiting for a fictional race war that will never happen.
–Cobra
Cobra,
Let’s talk debate technique. Do you know what a strawman is?
“There are many who agree with your philosphy at Stormfront, Aryan Nations, World Church of the Creator, Christian Identity, the CCC, Southern Partisan, and the NAAWP.”
This is an unfair tactic. You shift Rich’s philosophy. No longer is he simply opposed to AA. Now he’s the Grand Dragon of the KKK. Very crafty.
Here’s the core of the matter. Cobra, you say that AA is necessary to go against the natural order in America, that being white dominance. I’m not sure if you’re claiming on it’s face that white dominance is bad, or if you’re arguing the morally correct line that it’s bad if it is achieved through unjust means – that is, through unfair stereotyping, prejudice, and racial discrimination.
If it’s the first case: congratulations, you’re a racist! If it’s the second case, then I agree, we must not allow people to be judged by anything but merit. Unfortunately, citing “statistics” (i.e. a disparity in results) does nothing to “prove” racism by whites, because correlation does not imply causation.
Claire’s rationale is an equally viable explanation. I have met many people, including blacks, that use their arbitrary physical characteristics as an excuse. I’m not stereotyping here, but from my own personal experience, their is truth to what Claire argues. It’s not just blacks, or hispanics, or minorities. It’s anyone that is so ready and willing to adopt the mindset of a victim. Homosexuals, fat people, ugly people, all sorts of people – can fall into this mindset. But of course, there is no fat person equivalent to Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton.
There’s just so much wrong here with Cobra’s line on Affirmative Action. When “Reverend” Jackson argues for “civil rights” he no longer wants equal treatment, HE WANTS EQUAL RESULTS. I fear that Cobra argues for the same: an entitlement – that a certain portion of the American pie ought to be reserved for blacks. As if Economics is a zero sum game.
Let’s agree to something here, Cobra. A leftie and a rightie making a handshake to one thing: we ought to agree that discrimination on the basis of arbitrary characteristics is wrong, no matter who is doing or receiving the discrimination.
>>>Let’s agree to something here, Cobra. A leftie and a rightie making a handshake to one thing: we ought to agree that discrimination on the basis of arbitrary characteristics is wrong, no matter who is doing or receiving the discrimination.
“people like Rich, don’t really CARE if you face anti-minority bias in employment, education, loans, justice, etc. That’s why they’re so eager to return to the time where there WAS NO Affirmative Action, and when white patronage, privilege and monopoly was unchallenged. People who actually READ the statistics available know that white patronage, privileg and monopoly still FLOURISHES in America.”
What you deem to be “white privilege” is the unequal results that naturally results in a system of equal opportunity for individuals. In other words, equality of opportunity of opportunity for individuals naturally leads to inequality of results for individuals, and for groups of individuals as well.
Read the Bernstein post and see how African Americans and Hispanics do as groups on the one hand on the LSAT v. Whites & Asians on the other.
Let me make a prediction: When blacks & Hispanics outperform Whites & Asians on this exam, the gaps in those aforementioned aspects of life will be gone, and so called “white privilege” will not exist.
(This reads better)
What you deem to be “white privilege” is the unequal results that naturally occur in a system of equal opportunity for individuals. In other words, equality of opportunity for individuals naturally leads to inequality of results for individuals, and for groups of individuals as well.
Read the Bernstein post and see how African Americans and Hispanics do as groups on the one hand on the LSAT v. Whites & Asians on the other.
Let me make a prediction: When blacks & Hispanics outperform Whites & Asians on this exam, the gaps in those aforementioned aspects of life will be gone, and so called “white privilege” will not exist.
BTW: I’d like to see that day and will support policies to make it happen. But I won’t put the cart before the horse.
Jon,
You write:
>>>What you deem to be “white privilege” is the unequal results that naturally results in a system of equal opportunity for individuals. In other words, equality of opportunity of opportunity for individuals naturally leads to inequality of results for individuals, and for groups of individuals as well.http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pr/2004/May/04_crt_342.htm
http://www.uaw.org/cap/03/issues/issue21.cfm
http://www.hispanicbusiness.com/news/newsbyid.asp?id=9762
This happens in Housing–
http://www.huduser.org/publications/hsgfin/hds.html
This happens in Employment, where a recent study in the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel showed that a white person convicted of a felony was more likely to be called back for a job than an African American with no criminal record.
http://www.legis.state.wi.us/senate/sen04/news/articles/art2003-239.htm
Do I have to get into glass ceilings, wage gaps, law enforcement and a whole litany of other issues of discrimination? I shouldn’t have to, because the picture should seem perfectly clear to you. America is NOT CURRENTLY a land of equal opportunity.
Now, you bring up the LSATs, and I want to address this issue. There are many issues, as an African American I feel must be address in the community which I’m a part of. One is the priority placed upon education. I don’t believe it’s a genetic issue. There are Asian Americans who aren’t honor students, who work blue collar jobs and have low academic aptitude, and there are African American super-students, like Condolezza Rice and Barack Obama.
We would both agree that emphasizing academic achievement is a staple for success for ALL PARENTS OF ALL RACES to adhere to.
That being said, timed Standardized testing is a skill. You can “train” to take SATs and LSATs, and there is a lucrative market out there offering tutorial courses, preparation counceling and practice tests. I’m not saying that it’s a substitute for having a robust vocabulary and problem solving accumen, but there are definitive strategies on the market to help raise your scores.
I hope this helps clarify my viewpoints, Jon.
–Cobra
I am trying to find out why, as in my case, my fellow co-worker white americans, do not have the same heart I do? At work fellow hispanic co-workers have a similar heart or actually any minority have my heart but the white americans do not. We,(minorities) are always picked out as being a problem, when we are the hardest workers and we are committed. White american co-workers get away with everything under the sun and yet we (minorities) are called into the office. There are actually times where we (minorities) are not quick to go to our supervisor but the white american willhave no problem going straight to the supervisors office and we end up being called in because we seem to be the problem. Some how I see a great injustice here. Help me out I need books to read or something. I am hispanic. I am not hyper hispanic but the color of skin seems to be making a difference to others in our office. Again please explain what is wrong with the white american’s heart??